"jUsT fLy YoUR JeT BeTtEr..."

[peakfirearm]

6 minutes ago, Yannick Pancake said:

For me it sounds like you're behind the power curve... happened to a few trainees of me too

 

well with hb taking 70% of f110 ab thrust away below m0.7, decreasing lift, and adding a bunch of airframe drag making F14B "a grape" seems like a fairly reasonable hypothesis

6 minutes ago, Yannick Pancake said:

For me it sounds like you're behind the power curve... happened to a few trainees of me too

 

Btw. it has, you can learn to try to predict your opponents...

you say this like you know with absolute certainty I have spent zero time doing bfm vs AI recently

Edited December 24, 2022 by peakfirearm

[Stackup]

8 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

HB/ED/Razbam/3pd's still continue their claims of accuracy, realism, concern for detail

This is exactly why I like DCS.  Whether their planes are fully accurate or not will only really be known to those who flew them.  I will never be able to fly a Tomcat in real life so this is what I have and I choose to make the best of it.

 

21 minutes ago, kablamoman said:

At the end of the day, with players of comparable skill levels, the actual performance of a vehicle or weapon or class in a game environment will have an impact on outcome despite Top Gun fans claiming it's "the man in the box"

Never argued that fact.  The key is comparable skill and the Tomcat takes a lot of skill to fly correctly.  The pilot is important as if one pilot knows an exploit to win the match against a specific plane that pilot will generally win against a less skilled opponent.  That doesn't mean that the "man in the box" is the only thing that matters but skill is also an important factor and by that same token, the habits that let him win in the past might one day no longer work.  Like an ace Zero pilot thinking he's facing a Wildcat and going vertical when in reality he is facing a Hellcat.  His prior experience got him killed.  In a battle of equally skilled pilots the plane and weapons do make the difference, there's no question about that but we have no way of knowing who is the more skilled in the case of this thread.  I know I'm not the best at BFM and it's sometimes frustrating, but I don't go around complaining about it on forums when I lose either.

[Yannick Pancake]

3 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

well with hb taking 70% of f110 ab thrust away below m0.7, decreased lift, and added a bunch of airframe drag making F14B "a grape" seems like a fairly reasonable hypothesis

you say this like you know with absolute certainty I have spent zero time doing bfm vs AI recently

 

Well, it was just a suggestion, from my experience with the cat from the last few years, regarding any bfm stuff it CAN help to unload your airframe to get back above the power curve. yes during a fight it's hard but you can learn how to do it. 

 

 

It wasn't meant offensive, you just said it has absolutely nothing that you can carry over and i just think it's not that way, but this is just my opinion. 

[peakfirearm]

DCS World: "Our flight models are the most realistic ever created" 
but also DCS World: *dramatically changes flight models of simulated aircraft and missiles like it's call of duty modern warfare on console bc people cried on forums about a specific ac/missile being too good in multiplayer*

[Yannick Pancake]

46 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

well with hb taking 70% of f110 ab thrust away below m0.7, decreasing lift, and adding a bunch of airframe drag making F14B "a grape" seems like a fairly reasonable hypothesis

you say this like you know with absolute certainty I have spent zero time doing bfm vs AI recently

 

But I don't see the f14, especially the b not even close to "a grape". Yes HB changed the FM to some extent but not so extreme that it's unable to perform, at least for me and my buddy's. 

Buuuut, it's no much more important to learn and perfect your energy management. back in the days it was sometimes possible to get above the power curve just by throttling to max ab, well this doesn't work anymore. 

For this to understand you need to understand the concept of the power curve. It's a representation of the ratio between drag and thrust. 

Below a certain airspeed (indicated) and your AoA is too high (and so your drag is too high) your thrust might not be sufficient to maintain the speed. But if you reduce AoA (stick forward -> unloading) your airspeed will recover and increase, and you can continue to turn. 

To train this i can recommend 2 things

1. train with a buddy and train fly with a fixed throttle setting for example full mil

2. train with the A model

[RaisedByWolves]

It’s all so tiresome.

[peakfirearm]

20 minutes ago, RaisedByWolves said:

It’s all so tiresome.

yes

20 minutes ago, Yannick Pancake said:

But I don't see the f14, especially the b not even close to "a grape". Yes HB changed the FM to some extent but not so extreme that it's unable to perform, at least for me and my buddy's. 

Buuuut, it's no much more important to learn and perfect your energy management. back in the days it was sometimes possible to get above the power curve just by throttling to max ab, well this doesn't work anymore. 

For this to understand you need to understand the concept of the power curve. It's a representation of the ratio between drag and thrust. 

Below a certain airspeed (indicated) and your AoA is too high (and so your drag is too high) your thrust might not be sufficient to maintain the speed. But if you reduce AoA (stick forward -> unloading) your airspeed will recover and increase, and you can continue to turn. 

To train this i can recommend 2 things

1. train with a buddy and train fly with a fixed throttle setting for example full mil

2. train with the A model

What exactly are you and your buddies flying in these sessions? What aircraft configuration? What altitude? What met conditions? What types of BFM engagement setups? 

If you're doing DACT, for all I know, you're doing 1v1's with ac configs that I could never have an icicle's chance in hell of getting without being able to host my own servers running my own missions with a group of 200+ people consistently flying on it weekly(all things currently infeasible or impossible for me to replicate/reproduce)

Edited December 24, 2022 by peakfirearm

[Yannick Pancake]

7 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

yes

What exactly are you and your buddies flying in these sessions? What aircraft configuration? What altitude? What met conditions? 

Well you're asking me to write a whole book of possible scenarios...

buuut to give you an example, standard cap loadout, 2 aim 9, 3 aim 7 and maybe 2 aim 54, and 2 bags...

cap intercept, and in case we get into bfm we drop at least our bags. always drop those if you need to get into bfm

altitude and weather, whatever the situation dictates...

 

 

other situation, moc bfm, at like 10-15k ft asl and a slick jet (maybe only 2 aim 9) 

 

but don't focus that hard on weather and altitude, you can't influence these factors in your fight. 

 

drop you tanks if you have those and stay above that power curve if you maneuver

 

[peakfirearm]

2 minutes ago, Yannick Pancake said:

Well you're asking me to write a whole book of possible scenarios...

buuut to give you an example, standard cap loadout, 2 aim 9, 3 aim 7 and maybe 2 aim 54, and 2 bags...

cap intercept, and in case we get into bfm we drop at least our bags. always drop those if you need to get into bfm

altitude and weather, whatever the situation dictates...

 

 

other situation, moc bfm, at like 10-15k ft asl and a slick jet (maybe only 2 aim 9) 

 

but don't focus that hard on weather and altitude, you can't influence these factors in your fight. 

 

drop you tanks if you have those and stay above that power curve if you maneuver

 

In current public dogfight servers, typically best config I can get in F14B at ~12.0 internal fuel no phoenix pallets at ~5000ft agl, not sure about pressure, but vs a clean light F15, F16, FA18, Su27, M2KC it's just a complete and total world of pain. I can drop flaps, fully commit to close in knife fight, but any opponent with half a brain is going to realize that's what's going on and be able to exploit it. Also even though I drop flaps I can still be easily outrated by a Hornet in turn fight on the deck.

[Yannick Pancake]

In case you really want to get into bfm, look up bfm energy management on youtube and maybe in case you don't know the other stuff also videos on bfm theory. 

first video of a playlist i can recommend: 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

In current public dogfight servers, typically best config I can get in F14B at ~12.0 internal fuel no phoenix pallets at ~5000ft agl, not sure about pressure, but vs a clean light F15, F16, FA18, Su27, M2KC it's just a complete and total world of pain. I can drop flaps, fully commit to close in knife fight, but any opponent with half a brain is going to realize that's what's going on and be able to exploit it. Also even though I drop flaps I can still be easily outrated by a Hornet in turn fight on the deck.

Well you shouldn't drop flaps above 220, and the cat corners better at like 360 ish, at least this is what i aim for. i just use manever flaps and focus on my speed at around 360... 

[peakfirearm]

8 minutes ago, Yannick Pancake said:

the cat corners better at like 360 ish, at least this is what i aim for. i just use manever flaps and focus on my speed at around 360... 

yeah I do that in PVP 1v1 guns, I'm gonna get my lunch eaten and die very quickly. happens all the time every time I fly. fly versus some guy that's a Hornet 1v1 guns bfm idiot savant, congratulations, I've died in 20 seconds off the initial like I'm the most useless noob scrub of all time.

Is there some kind of disconnect between the world I DCS BFM in and the one everyone else commenting in this thread bfm in?

Edited December 24, 2022 by peakfirearm

[Yannick Pancake]

2 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

yeah I do that in PVP 1v1 guns, I'm gonna get my lunch eaten and die very quickly happens all the time

 

What do you do? first you said you drop you flaps, now you say you aim for 360

[peakfirearm]

17 minutes ago, Yannick Pancake said:

What do you do? first you said you drop you flaps, now you say you aim for 360

yeah sorry, guess I forgot to include the part about assessing a situation and sometimes using a little bit of discretion with certain things I do in life which I'm sure is an absolute shock to everyone since I'm so inept and stupid.

as in "OH (explative explative) this obnoxious Hornet scrub is sustaining more G than me and outrating me whilst I'm bleeding out all my energy, maybe I should drop flaps if I want to have a chance at not being slaughtered like a fat useless hog..."

Edited December 24, 2022 by peakfirearm

[Yannick Pancake]

11 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

yeah I do that in PVP 1v1 guns, I'm gonna get my lunch eaten and die very quickly. happens all the time every time I fly. fly versus some guy that's a Hornet 1v1 guns bfm idiot savant, congratulations, I've died in 20 seconds off the initial like I'm the most useless noob scrub of all time.

Is there some kind of disconnect between the world I DCS BFM in and the one everyone else commenting in this thread bfm 

Well I don't know what you do differently, the only thing i can now ask is, do you aim for 360ish kias or do you drop your flaps? if you do the latter one, change to the first option. 

otherwise i'm afraid i can't help you, I'm really sorry. 

 

i can only list my tips

energy management, especially power curve 

i've sent you a few videos, maybe those can help you

don't drop your flaps, (following is only my personal opinion) i would consider using them a more advanced tactic, and it seems that trying those shouldn't be your goal for now

 

[Despayre]

43 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

DCS World: "Our flight models are the most realistic ever created" 
but also DCS World: *dramatically changes flight models of simulated aircraft and missiles like it's call of duty modern warfare on console bc people cried on forums about a specific ac/missile being too good in multiplayer*

Utter bull<profanity>. 

As evidence of your false claim, I give you this recent comment from directly from HB regarding the Phoenix, which CLEARLY states you're wrong, they do NOT "dramatically changes flight models of simulated aircraft and missiles like it's call of duty modern warfare on console bc people cried on forums", and if you think that's true anyway, well, that's just more proof you're living in a different world than the rest of us.
 

 

[peakfirearm]

1 minute ago, Despayre said:

Utter bull<profanity>. 

As evidence of your false claim, I give you this recent comment from directly from HB regarding the Phoenix, which CLEARLY states you're wrong, they do NOT "dramatically changes flight models of simulated aircraft and missiles like it's call of duty modern warfare on console bc people cried on forums", and if you think that's true anyway, well, that's just more proof you're living in a different world than the rest of us.
 

 

shill 

[Dragon1-1]

13 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

Is there some kind of disconnect between the world I DCS BFM in and the one everyone else commenting in this thread bfm in?

Yes, there is. Other people use and understand actual BFM tactics. You appear to have heard the advice, but you don't actually understand where it came from. In air combat, you not only need to know what to do, you need to know why you're doing it. Only that lets you make a gameplan that will, if the enemy isn't far better than you, put you in the right place.

Look up Growling Sidewinder, his videos don't always the best flying, but they typically show BFM concepts very nicely. The Hornet turns great, but in vertical maneuvers, it'll fall out of the sky before the Tomcat does. Understand the physics involved, then understand how they apply to specific airframes. Also note, the Hornet is renowned for the ability to point its nose. If whoever you're fighting is a good marksman, you can get sniped on a high angle pass without being able to do whole lot about it. For that, you need to recognize him pulling in for a shot, pull at just the right time to throw it off, and then be ready to exploit him being in a low energy state.

Oh, and forget the maneuver flaps. They're great if you need to salvage a bad situation, but if you do things right, you shouldn't ever end up in a situation where they'll deploy. Don't get slow, except if you're at the top of a loop. Also, don't get hung up on a specific speed. Corner speed is just one thing. Practice against AI, it got pretty good at BFM lately, but also remember humans are a bigger challenge than even "Ace" AI. So make sure you can reliably splash those before mixing it up in MP.

[peakfirearm]

2 minutes ago, Despayre said:

Utter bull<profanity>. 

As evidence of your false claim, I give you this recent comment from directly from HB regarding the Phoenix, which CLEARLY states you're wrong, they do NOT "dramatically changes flight models of simulated aircraft and missiles like it's call of duty modern warfare on console bc people cried on forums", and if you think that's true anyway, well, that's just more proof you're living in a different world than the rest of us.
 

 

correllation isn't causation, but sus coincidences still sus coincidences 

[Yannick Pancake]

6 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

yeah sorry, guess I forgot to include the part about assessing a situation and sometimes using a little bit of discretion with certain things I do in life which I'm sure is an absolute shock to everyone since I'm so inept and stupid.

as in "OH (explative explative) this F18 is sustaining more G than me and outrating me whilst I'm bleeding out all my energy, maybe I should drop flaps if I want to have a chance at not being slaughtered like a fat useless hog..."

 

Flaps are a tradeoff, Lift for drag, so you get even slower and have less energy. Just try it without dropping flaps, just use maneuver flaps. if it doesn't work call me stupid and ignore me. 

 

but for real, i have no idea left what to do, sorry.

[peakfirearm]

1 minute ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Yes, there is. Other people use and understand actual BFM tactics. You appear to have heard the advice, but you don't actually understand where it came from. In air combat, you not only need to know what to do, you need to know why you're doing it. Only that lets you make a gameplan that will, if the enemy isn't far better than you, put you in the right place.

Look up Growling Sidewinder, his videos don't always the best flying, but they typically show BFM concepts very nicely. The Hornet turns great, but in vertical maneuvers, it'll fall out of the sky before the Tomcat does. Understand the physics involved, then understand how they apply to specific airframes. Also note, the Hornet is renowned for the ability to point its nose. If whoever you're fighting is a good marksman, you can get sniped on a high angle pass without being able to do whole lot about it. For that, you need to recognize him pulling in for a shot, pull at just the right time to throw it off, and then be ready to exploit him being in a low energy state.

Oh, and forget the maneuver flaps. They're great if you need to salvage a bad situation, but if you do things right, you shouldn't ever end up in a situation where they'll deploy. Don't get slow, except if you're at the top of a loop. Also, don't get hung up on a specific speed. Corner speed is just one thing. Practice against AI, it got pretty good at BFM lately, but also remember humans are a bigger challenge than even "Ace" AI. So make sure you can reliably splash those before mixing it up in MP.

insert eyeroll/barf emoji at everything that's been said in your comment

man I miss the HBF14B boomerwaffen circa 2019 that would rip your head off and make a mockery with your virtual forum corpse for questioning the HBF14B then throw all kinds of charts and stuff at you saying how perfect the HBF14B circa 2019 was. I wish they were here now fighting this fight and not me doing the garbage job I am at it 

[peakfirearm]

strong men create good times. good times create soft men. soft men create bad times

[Dragon1-1]

Have fun going down in flames, then. I don't claim to be a particularly good dogfighter, but I can handle AI most of the time, and I understand what's happening in a fight. You can either do your homework, or be doomed to lose to people who do. People who you lose to follow what I said (they didn't get it from me, but I wasn't the one who came up with it, either).

FYI, these days, smarts is strength. The airframe does matter (although in a guns engagement, it matters less than in a missile fight), but the pilot, specifically the pilot's brain, is either its greatest strength or its greatest weakness. It appears you chose to be the latter.

[Despayre]

9 minutes ago, peakfirearm said:

shill 

Whiner.

Did you stop to wonder why you're 2 pages in, and not a single person has pointed to any cause for your problems, other than your ability to fly the plane? Think about that, it's rhetorical.

Also, pretty ridiculous that you ignore a direct statement from those that actually work on the flight model, telling you that your claims are flat-out wrong. But I get it, it's hard to argue your case when you have no evidence of an external problem whatsoever but still can't quite bring yourself to believe that maybe it's just you.

[peakfirearm]

12 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The airframe does matter (although in a guns engagement, it matters less than in a missile fight)

this is backwards. completely backwards. is it disinformation? or do you have dyslexia?

WVR heater fight, all you do is crank. point and shoot then try to run away, even less cranking and pointing is required with helmet sight/JHMCS 

11 minutes ago, Despayre said:

Did you stop to wonder why you're 2 pages in, and not a single person has pointed to any cause for your problems, other than your ability to fly the plane? Think about that, it's rhetorical.

 

It's ingroup gatekeeping conspirators vs a loathsome detestable outgroup reject?

Edited December 25, 2022 by peakfirearm

[peakfirearm]

why does everything I like have to suck? 2018 I love the hornet and it's awesome, F14 is released, F18 sucks can't win at all. I start flying F14 and really like it start winning a lot in it. immediately F14 sucks and F18 is unbeatable again. what is this? some kind of joke? It's literally just like some crappy online multiplayer console game where there's a buff of one gun nerf of another and it goes back and forth. 

perpetually moving goal posts?

Edited December 25, 2022 by peakfirearm