Force feedback question

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I guess, we are now talking about perception about what works and what does not work. Based on my experience and what I found through testing the EvoForce, my perception is that the stick is all right and it does not need any modifications. It just does not work in BS. But that's only me and my perception.

[Mogster]

Well for whatever reason FFB doesn't work properly for me with my MSFF2. It isn't a game breaker but I'd like to get it fixed. I have had centre forces and now FFB forces turned to 0 is the SW software to no effect.

 

As I said earlier after pressing the trim button I get spring back to centre unless I press the stick a long way forward, then the FFB forms the new centre point. Its as if the FFB centre point making is very gross and can't position my stick exactly so it makes a very vague approximation.

 

Holding less than about 45deg (normal centre being 0) of forward stick travel then I press the trimmer and the stick won't hold that position it just springs back to centre. With extreme forward stick travel, close to max (60deg) then the FFB forms a new centre point correctly and I can release the stick without a return to 0deg.

 

I do have an X45 stick plugged in as well to use the throttle, maybe I'll unplug that to see if its making a difference. I already

have all its assignments deleted.

 

EDIT ---------------------------

 

OK, unplugging the X45 makes no difference. The more I play around with this the more it seems like the FFB just can't position my stick accurately enough for my liking. When it sets the new centre position there always seems to be a slop of about an inch of travel back towards the real stick centre.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Mogster

[EtherealN]

A question: I have the "standard" force problems with my Cyborg Evo Force in black shark. But is it worth bothering with trying to fix it (I have gotten used to handling trim with FFB off, just need to up the wait time after trim release a little) when my pedal kit is completely FFB-free?

 

Or is it possible to set things up separately so that with a fixed FFB on the stick I would still manually center the pedals after trimming?

[Nayles]

Well for whatever reason FFB doesn't work properly for me with my MSFF2. It isn't a game breaker but I'd like to get it fixed. I have had centre forces and now FFB forces turned to 0 is the SW software to no effect.

 

As I said earlier after pressing the trim button I get spring back to centre unless I press the stick a long way forward, then the FFB forms the new centre point. Its as if the FFB centre point making is very gross and can't position my stick exactly so it makes a very vague approximation.

 

Holding less than about 45deg (normal centre being 0) of forward stick travel then I press the trimmer and the stick won't hold that position it just springs back to centre. With extreme forward stick travel, close to max (60deg) then the FFB forms a new centre point correctly and I can release the stick without a return to 0deg.

 

I do have an X45 stick plugged in as well to use the throttle, maybe I'll unplug that to see if its making a difference. I already

have all its assignments deleted.

 

EDIT ---------------------------

 

OK, unplugging the X45 makes no difference. The more I play around with this the more it seems like the FFB just can't position my stick accurately enough for my liking. When it sets the new centre position there always seems to be a slop of about an inch of travel back towards the real stick centre.

 

I hope I don't come across as a smartass but my MSFF2 worked straight out of the box and the ONLY change I made was to swap the axes in the options in game.

 

I didn't mess about with the Sidewinder software setting return forces to 0 or anything... and it works perfectly.

 

I'd be suprised if it was a DCS software problem and can only suggest that you keep fiddling with your stick setup, and possibly testing it in other games to see whether your stick is functioning correctly (i.e. not broken).

 

Wish I could help more because I know this must be driving you up the wall.

 

Goodluck :thumbup:

[opformaster]

I wanna see some MSFFB guts :music_whistling:. Does it have internal springs for centering?

 

 

-op4

[Weta43]

^^ No springs, all done through actuators.

(once I reversed the forces, mine also worked without cancelling centering forces, but I had cancelled them before I ran the sim first time as I figured they would be a problem if they occured. Took me a while to realise I had to swap forces though ...)

[Kurtz]

Another fact is that there is plenty of power in the Saitek Evo Force to move and hold the stick in any position. Without compressing or removing the centering spring. I demonstrated that with the use of the test force utility program.

 

I found the forces exerted when using test force are much greater than the forces experianced inflight with DCS. Neutralizing the spring is still required if you want your stick to stay where you left it.

 

Regardless of this I found the main failing of the EVO FF was not the level of force, but the dead zone between where the forces came into effect. Creating a cyclic dead zone elleviated this somewhat and made the EVO FF an option for me, but the dead zone made the stick feel to slopy for my needs. I prefered to contend with the X52pro trim.

 

This whole trim issue is causing new heli pilots more grief than the old hands. I'll be happy when the trimming options are patched into this game, so when I introduce new people to this excellant sim, they dont abandon it because they believe it flies like a mechanical bull ;)

[Mogster]

I hope I don't come across as a smartass but my MSFF2 worked straight out of the box and the ONLY change I made was to swap the axes in the options in game.

 

I didn't mess about with the Sidewinder software setting return forces to 0 or anything... and it works perfectly.

 

I'd be suprised if it was a DCS software problem and can only suggest that you keep fiddling with your stick setup, and possibly testing it in other games to see whether your stick is functioning correctly (i.e. not broken).

 

Wish I could help more because I know this must be driving you up the wall.

 

Goodluck :thumbup:

 

I've finally got this sorted and so I'll update this thread for future reference.

 

The problem was the S shaped axis curves that I'd added from the start for X and Y cyclic. The FF channel was still setting the new centre position as if the curve wasn't there, that was the difference between my stick position and the FF stick position. So the FF doesn't follow the axis curves you set, at least for me anyhow.

 

Thi is annoying as it means I can't calm the heli down with a softer response curve without it messing up the FF trim :(

 

As far as I can see this sounds like a bug, no?

Edited January 26, 2009 by Mogster

[Nayles]

I've finally got this sorted and so I'll update this thread for future reference.

 

The problem was the S shaped axis curves that I'd added from the start for X and Y cyclic. The FF channel was still setting the new centre position as if the curve wasn't there, that was the difference between my stick position and the FF stick position. So the FF doesn't follow the axis curves you set, at least for me anyhow.

 

Thi is annoying as it means I can't calm the heli down with a softer response curve without it messing up the FF trim :(

 

As far as I can see this sounds like a bug, no?

 

I have found that with the AP enabled (with or without FD on) the controls feel 'soft' to me. I would certainly place trim hold above a less responsive stick.

 

Whilst it may be a bug I'd learn to adjust to flying with the default axis curves - less than ideal - but the trim hold really does feel good when you have it working properly.

 

When I think about it most of my joystick control inputs are tiny... I'm guessing that a lot of little stick movements are better than just a few big ones?

 

Feels like a helicopter to me! :smilewink:

[Mogster]

having the trim working correctly has made my flying much smoother, I get the ease of flying that people talk about now with the FF sticks.

 

Things are just a lot more twitchy with a straight response curve though, tiny movements have the heli jumping around.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Mogster

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I found the forces exerted when using test force are much greater than the forces experianced inflight with DCS.

That is exactly the point I was making as well. In my view, electromechanicaly, the EvoForce stick has plenty of power to do whatever is told to do. The question is why is software not telling it to do it?

 

Is it the stick software drivers that are not optimized, or SDK for the stick is glitched and is not producing desired results? I don't know.