How I Think the Controls Should Work

[ericinexile]

Ok, since I'm now at risk of looking like Rokoskowksy, the guy on the RWS thread a few weeks ago, I'm done. If the DCS:Ka50 matches the real Ka50, I'll use FD. If the DCS:Ka50 doesn't match the real Ka50, I'll........use the FD. Thanks everyone for your ideas and input.

 

Smokin' Hole

[ARM505]

Don't worry - I still get what you're saying, and still believe nobody has actually 100% caught the point. I was hoping for some 'official' input though. We'll see. I did some testing regarding this yesterday, and when pitching the nose down (for example) with the pitch AP engaged, definite pressure is required to hold the aircraft in a new pitch attitude. When the pitch AP is disengaged, this doesn't happen. Ergo, the pitch stabilisation is 'fighting' my input when I moved the nose from the 'trimmed' attitude. I use inverted comma's around trimmed because I know that the attitude isn't trimmed, merely the stick input. This seems to conflict with the quotes from EB etc when they state that moving the controls stops the AP pitch stabilisation from making corrective inputs AGAINST cyclic input. So, EiE, I do think I see your point.

Edited February 11, 2009 by ARM505

[Shaitaan]

Ok, since I'm now at risk of looking like Rokoskowksy, the guy on the RWS thread a few weeks ago, I'm done. If the DCS:Ka50 matches the real Ka50, I'll use FD. If the DCS:Ka50 doesn't match the real Ka50, I'll........use the FD. Thanks everyone for your ideas and input.

 

Smokin' Hole

 

I too see you're point and think that the AP disengaging when sensing cyclic input sounds right. Which is not what we are experiencing at the moment in DCS: BS.

 

So I also would like to hear a response from the devs.

 

Shaitaan

[DragonRR]

Bumping this thread because I would really like to have a response from someone who is actually certain of the correct answer! :helpsmilie:

[Big_les]

Every single maneouvre is fought by the AP - no doubt a FF stick helps smooth control, and maybe it is 100% realistic, but that rubberbanding effect on control inputs is clearly there, and it takes time to get used to. I assume and hope that it reflects reality, but I am somewhat incredulous about that.

 

If you use the press-and-hold trim method or the FD, the effect is removed. I can't master the former and don't like the HUD symbology and lack of ready autohover (and other AP functions) associated with the latter though. Plus supposedly neither method is used by real BS pilots.

 

Is the answer simply that unless you have a proper cyclic with force feedback, you're doomed to have the rubberbanding? If so, I feel like I (we?) need a "normal joystick" realism option, because even after several weeks now, I still fight this thing on every mission.

[WynnTTr]

Every single maneouvre is fought by the AP - no doubt a FF stick helps smooth control, and maybe it is 100% realistic, but that rubberbanding effect on control inputs is clearly there, and it takes time to get used to. I assume and hope that it reflects reality, but I am somewhat incredulous about that.

 

If you use the press-and-hold trim method or the FD, the effect is removed. I can't master the former and don't like the HUD symbology and lack of ready autohover (and other AP functions) associated with the latter though. Plus supposedly neither method is used by real BS pilots.

 

Is the answer simply that unless you have a proper cyclic with force feedback, you're doomed to have the rubberbanding? If so, I feel like I (we?) need a "normal joystick" realism option, because even after several weeks now, I still fight this thing on every mission.

As stated numerous times before, your personal experience doesn't mean that the game isn't realistic. There are plenty of pilots and gamers that have learnt how to trim properly and have no problems flying the BS with 3 APs on all the time.

 

The hold trimmer method IS used by real pilots. Read the thread through as this has been mentioned before. Also check out the sticky on how to trim properly... the hold trimmer method is one valid method that's used by rl pilots. Of course other pilots do things differently, but that's also the case in other aircraft/vehicles.

 

If FD works for you, then use FD. If turning off all the AP's works, then do that. Whatever helps you complete the mission and land safely.

[AlphaInfinity]

I generally fly with the FD off and the three autopilot modes engaged. All four will be engaged in autohover mode.

[Big_les]

As stated numerous times before, your personal experience doesn't mean that the game isn't realistic.

 

Did I say that it wasn't? I'm echoing the OP here, which is seeking confirmation of realism, not asserting that there isn't any.

 

There are plenty of pilots and gamers that have learnt how to trim properly and have no problems flying the BS with 3 APs on all the time.

 

I manage just fine - I'm just wondering along the lines of the OP is all. If the rubberbanding is a product of my substandard joystick setup and relative inexperience, that's fine.

 

The hold trimmer method IS used by real pilots. Read the thread through as this has been mentioned before. Also check out the sticky on how to trim properly... the hold trimmer method is one valid method that's used by rl pilots. Of course other pilots do things differently, but that's also the case in other aircraft/vehicles.

 

Yet elsewhere in these forums, including by posters involved with ED, it's stated that holding the trimmer is not the way it's done IRL. Which is correct?

 

If FD works for you, then use FD. If turning off all the AP's works, then do that. Whatever helps you complete the mission and land safely.

 

I totally agree. But several of us would like to know how it's taught in the real aircraft, and so far consensus seems to be no FD, and little to no press/hold trimming.

 

I realise you're probably getting sick of the same questions coming up over and over again, but we've all paid for this simulation and we're entitled to question it. Even if we're all wrong, this is how sims are improved these days, is it not? User feedback? Most of us are enjoying it - me included. I'm doing as well with the game as I did Falcon 4 when I first sat down to it. It's just that having played most of the flight sims released in the last 20 years, this is the first one I've had to fight just to fly manually from A to B. My current feeling is that this because of these factors;

 

a) BS is probably the most realistic of all of them

b) My joystick is rubbish, and not FF

c) It's an unusual type (helo, contra-rotor, non-"Western" etc)

d) I still lack experience

 

Of these, only b) can be addressed by the developers. If the rubberbanding is not something seen IRL (and in fact I do think I see evidence of it in the youtube videos), I think there should be consideration given to a realism feature that allows moderation of it for those of us who don't wish to or aren't able to go the FF route, but equally have no desire to play the arcade mode. Hell, maybe BS is just too realistic for many of us plebs. I still think there's an argument for an optional, smoother FM, since whereas I will stick with this, I think many will simply delete the game and not try it again out of frustration with the apparently squirrelly FM. I have one friend who already feels this way, and there are clearly quite a few online who consider it an issue.

 

The irony to all this is that I love the game. It's just when I/the helo spazzes out for the umpteenth time and refuses to turn in one motion, I can't help wondering if it's all my fault!

[WynnTTr]

Yet elsewhere in these forums, including by posters involved with ED, it's stated that holding the trimmer is not the way it's done IRL. Which is correct?

Matter of opinion. A16 who's worked on Russian aircraft (in the how to trim sticky) says it's the correct way.. and as I said earlier in this thread there was a post from a blackhawk pilot saying how realistic the trim is. Then there's a couple of ppl in this very thread who have flown similar helos with AP functions - ruprecht? and dugulus, read their relies.

 

I totally agree. But several of us would like to know how it's taught in the real aircraft, and so far consensus seems to be no FD, and little to no press/hold trimming.

Funny, the consensus to me was to hold down trimmer while making course changes. I've never flown a helo sim before this game so I was a complete white sheet and this was the general concensus that I picked up. If the majority do it, then that's how I firstly learn.

 

 

Of these, only b) can be addressed by the developers. If the rubberbanding is not something seen IRL (and in fact I do think I see evidence of it in the youtube videos), I think there should be consideration given to a realism feature that allows moderation of it for those of us who don't wish to or aren't able to go the FF route, but equally have no desire to play the arcade mode. Hell, maybe BS is just too realistic for many of us plebs. I still think there's an argument for an optional, smoother FM, since whereas I will stick with this, I think many will simply delete the game and not try it again out of frustration with the apparently squirrelly FM. I have one friend who already feels this way, and there are clearly quite a few online who consider it an issue.

 

The irony to all this is that I love the game. It's just when I/the helo spazzes out for the umpteenth time and refuses to turn in one motion, I can't help wondering if it's all my fault!

I'm sorry to say, but perhaps it is you. Again, there's alot more people that have bought the game and are flying it fine, and it would seem that those that do have a problem flying it just don't properly understand trim mechanics. I'm willing to bet that if you started a poll in these forums on whether anyone can fly the BS w/o problems, most will respond yes.

 

All I can say (as it was said to me when I started out), practice, practice, practice.

Now I can fly, do evasive maneuvers, hover (without autohover), hard bank, even some acrobatic moves - without colliding my blades, rubberbanding or crashing.

 

I understand your frustration though. A scalable difficulty setting would be much more user friendly. But having said that though, I knew exactly what I was getting into when purchasing the game. I knew that there was going to be a huge learning curve - but that was part of the fun/challenge.

[WynnTTr]

I'd just like to say that it's good that ppl have raised the issue. I completely agree that if it makes the sim more realistic, then that can only be a good thing.

 

It's just that I have faith in ED in how they're implemented the trim system. Given the high fidelity of the chopper, flight modelling, buttonology, avionics, it would seem to big a BIG blunder if they didn't do the same for how the AP/trim system works. A mistake so big that it could not have possibly passed QA testing. That's why I believe that what we have is as realistic as they could make it.

That's why i would rather err on the side of ED (who have real data from Kamov, seen the KA-50, spoken to real pilots), rather than individual gamers opinions on how the BS flies. Even against rl chopper pilots - unless they've flown military grade equipment.

 

But if it is a mistake, then it has to be corrected. Every one of us will adapt just fine.

[DragonRR]

I'd just like to say that it's good that ppl have raised the issue. I completely agree that if it makes the sim more realistic, then that can only be a good thing.

 

It's just that I have faith in ED in how they're implemented the trim system. Given the high fidelity of the chopper, flight modelling, buttonology, avionics, it would seem to big a BIG blunder if they didn't do the same for how the AP/trim system works. A mistake so big that it could not have possibly passed QA testing. That's why I believe that what we have is as realistic as they could make it.

That's why i would rather err on the side of ED (who have real data from Kamov, seen the KA-50, spoken to real pilots), rather than individual gamers opinions on how the BS flies. Even against rl chopper pilots - unless they've flown military grade equipment.

 

But if it is a mistake, then it has to be corrected. Every one of us will adapt just fine.

 

I would generally agree with this and have no real issues flying the KA-50 msyelf despite having a non-FFB joystick however there are two issues (although the OP was really only questioning the first)

 

1. Is the original poster correct? He cites two credible community members who appear to agree with his point of view. I do, however, tend to agree with you (WynnTTr) that ED probably got it right.

2. Flying with a non-FFB joystick is not natural so ED came up with a workaround. a short delay to allow you to recenter your stick/rudder and the CTRL-ENTER window showing where the KA-50 has locked your controls. (I have to say that I'm not sure whether the delay is realistic or not!)

 

The second issue is important because realism is already broken here. In my opinion whether it is realistic or not the OP's method where moving the stick would completely disengage the APs WOULD in fact work better than the current system. Or at least it would be nice if ED included it as an option alongside the CTRL-ENTER window.

 

As I said previously I have no major problems flying the Blackshark. I do however use FD whenever I'm just flying around, doing hard manuevers and so on. I go back to no-FD for route flying, approaching target zones and similar. The problem I have is that the general consensus is that this isn't very realistic, real KA-50 pilots rarely, if ever, use FD.