Sukhoi Su-47 vs F-22 Raptor

[FuldaGap]

Well, I don't understand your point about F-22s IR signature... Engine exhaust is warm and can be detected. I just noted that the russians are quite advanced in IR detection and that it might be another way to find targets that "stealth=invisible to radar"-people haven't thought about.

 

Yes, most older migs are dead, but in a brewing big conflict, one must assume that the russians would devote an unseemly amount of resources to get most of their winged aircraft in the air (even prop-driven ;) ).

 

That whole radar-thing about a -40dbsm target i openly admit that I don't understand. I'm no expert in radar technology. I just said that I don't know the different detection ranges that the Raptor-radar and the Su-35-radar has. I don't know who would detect a... Cessna 172 or something (a common example-target)... first.. I assume it's the F-22 because it probably got more sophisticated signal processing than the Su-35, but all that is classified so we all have to assume a bit in that area... I assume ;)

 

SDB's are impressive weapons and I guess even an F-22 could take a bunch of them, but you can't honestly believe that a force of F-22s and F-35 could wipe out the entire russian air defence network without ever coming under fire?

 

You said: "The radar is slaved to those targets and the engagement follows".

Yes, the F-22 has lots of amazing qualities, I'm sure, but once it flips on its radar, it is immediately detectable. Even if the radar is on for only a few seconds to give the weapon a lock, the enemy will know there's an F-22 in that particular area, and that's always trouble for any aircraft.

 

At least we agree on one thing then :) ;)

[Vault]

Actually it is possible to predict, and it is precicely because it is possible to predict that the F-22 has been built.

 

It's funny how people accuse others of 'not understanding that stealth doesn't mean invisible' and then throwing out some interesting theories about how 'F-22 in afterburner is bright in some spectra' ... or apparently presume that the fuel tanks aren't jettisonable? What's up with that?

 

The funny thing about older migs etc? They're decrepit. They can't fly any longer ;)

 

As for the Su-35 having a more powerful radar, have fun with doing some math with a -40dbsm target and tell me if you really REALLY want to end up in an arena where that target can see you at 5 times the range you can, and can fire outside the range that you can detect him at. Go ahead. Do the math. ;) Do it ;)

 

As for SAMs ... F-22/35 + SDB. Buhbye SAM. That is a 60 - read it again, 60 nm attack range against ground targets.

 

The other truly amusing thing is how ridiculously little knowledge people display about the integrated capabilities of the F-22. Even the LITTLE bit of knowledge that's been allowed to leak out isn't shown in those arguments.

 

Here's a clue: The F-22 can passively detect, classify and designate targets for engagement. The radar is slaved to those targets and the engagement follows. That is for any radiating target.

 

What IS correct here is that there are not enough F-22's.

 

+1 Why is that every Russian avaition fan thinks that the Ibris-E is superiour to the AN/APG-77? I don't understand why people think a PESA is superior to a AESA. Why do alot of people think stealth means "invisible" when really it means LO?. It annoys me to watch people try to compare MiG-29/35's and Su30/35/47 with true 5th generation fighters like the Raptor.

[GGTharos]

Well, I don't understand your point about F-22s IR signature... Engine exhaust is warm and can be detected. I just noted that the russians are quite advanced in IR detection and that it might be another way to find targets that "stealth=invisible to radar"-people haven't thought about.

 

IR transmission through he atmosphere is very limited, and more so when the aircraft's own fuselage is hiding it. It doesn't actually help that the F-22 also has IR stealthing.

What 'advanced IR detection' are you talking about that the USAF lacks? They pack the most advanced and capable IIR systems out there. The IR system on the russian birds is a BACKUP to the radar. The radar is STILL the primary instrument for locating and engaging targets.

 

Yes, most older migs are dead, but in a brewing big conflict, one must assume that the russians would devote an unseemly amount of resources to get most of their winged aircraft in the air (even prop-driven ;) ).

What unseemly amount of resources? They are falling apart :P

 

That whole radar-thing about a -40dbsm target i openly admit that I don't understand. I'm no expert in radar technology.

Then you should seriously stop talking about it and making statements as to radar performance, shouldn't you? ;) That's a friendly suggestion, not said in malice.

 

 

I just said that I don't know the different detection ranges that the Raptor-radar and the Su-35-radar has. I don't know who would detect a... Cessna 172 or something (a common example-target)... first.. I assume it's the F-22 because it probably got more sophisticated signal processing than the Su-35, but all that is classified so we all have to assume a bit in that area... I assume ;)

If you assume nothing other than radar power, the Su-35 comes out slightly on top. Slightly on top might be 10% ;) If you assume that the AESA radar as well as the actual processig is better, the F-22 comes out a lot on top ;)

 

You won't detect anything that resembles a 3sqm fighter target much farther than 150km, no matter what fighter radar you're pinging it with right now, AFAIK.

 

It gets worse: If your Su-35 is on one F-15's, F-22's, F-16's, PATRIOTs, AWACS radar, the F-22 sees YOU but you don't see IT.

 

But that's not the end of it! Even if you DO somehow see that F-22 on dlink, your weapons won't guide to it!

 

SDB's are impressive weapons and I guess even an F-22 could take a bunch of them, but you can't honestly believe that a force of F-22s and F-35 could wipe out the entire russian air defence network without ever coming under fire?

There's no need to make that assumption. The USAF can send some UAV's ahead to light up the SAMs and the F-22's can do the rest.

 

Further, the F-22's just need to open a corridor - ie kick down the door, the rest iwll be done by F-35's, F-16's, F-15's, Typhoons etc.

 

You said: "The radar is slaved to those targets and the engagement follows".

Yes, the F-22 has lots of amazing qualities, I'm sure, but once it flips on its radar, it is immediately detectable. Even if the radar is on for only a few seconds to give the weapon a lock, the enemy will know there's an F-22 in that particular area, and that's always trouble for any aircraft.

 

At least we agree on one thing then :) ;)

No, it won't be. The F-22 uses an LPI radar which is actually not likely to be detected. Not impossible, but not likely.

 

You see, stealth really does mean stealth - they thought about it pretty hard. ;)

Edited February 19, 2009 by GGTharos

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What IS correct here is that there are not enough F-22's.

Yup, you are right. Two or three F-22's can I am sure defeat any SINGLE fighter airplane in the world.

 

During the recent conflict NATO brought 10 fighters of the latest generation for every one old and half broken fighter on the other side. It worked, if you asked Jamie Shea.

 

This is not to say that F-22 is bad aircraft. In my view, F-22 is probably the best flying fighter aircraft in the world. However, I am convinced, it is not as good as many think and say it is.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[Maximus_G]

+1 Why is that every Russian avaition fan thinks that the Ibris-E is superiour to the AN/APG-77?

 

Well, not everyone :music_whistling:

While a modern EOTS could actually give a significant advantage to one 5-gen fighter against another 5-gen.

[GGTharos]

Not only it is as good as they say, it exceeded specifications parameters in many areas, including RCS.

 

It is also an aircraft which reduces the number of support aircraft required to travel with it (ie. it can do its own electronic warfare, and other functions. It can also support other aircraft with EW, ELINT and other functions even after its payload is expended). In short, it reduces the cost of operations since you now don't need to fly those extra aircraft, and you don't need to put tankers in the air for them.

 

Just an example.

 

This is not to say that F-22 is bad aircraft. In my view, F-22 is probably the best flying fighter aircraft in the world. However, I am convinced, it is not as good as many think and say it is.

[GGTharos]

Not really ;)

 

While a modern EOTS could actually give a significant advantage to one 5-gen fighter against another 5-gen.

[FuldaGap]

+1 Why is that every Russian avaition fan thinks that the Ibris-E is superiour to the AN/APG-77? I don't understand why people think a PESA is superior to a AESA. Why do alot of people think stealth means "invisible" when really it means LO?. It annoys me to watch people try to compare MiG-29/35's and Su30/35/47 with true 5th generation fighters like the Raptor.

 

Are you answering me or topol-m?

 

If it is me:

-I never said I'm a Russian aviation fan.

-I never said the Ibris-E is superior to the AN/APG-77. I said russian IR optics are effective and may pose a threat to any aircraft. Also stealth

-"Why do alot of people think stealth means "invisible" when really it means LO": That's what I said.

-Why does it "annoy" you that people compare?

 

If it's not me:

never mind. ;)

[Vault]

Well, not everyone :music_whistling:

While a modern EOTS could actually give a significant advantage to one 5-gen fighter against another 5-gen.

 

The F-35 has more intergrated systems than any other fighter out there including the F-22 but I don't think EOTS would prove a significant advantage for the F-35 over the F-22. Don't get me wrong the F-35 is a very good peice of hardware for the cost, but it has nothing on the F-22.

[FuldaGap]

You see, stealth really does mean stealth - they thought about it pretty hard. ;)

 

I have no doubt, but history has shown that no military machine is invincible. And even if it seems to be invincible just as it enters service, the "enemies" all over the world will constantly try to find new ways to defeat it. I love the F-22 and think it's going to prove an amazing aircraft, but I'm no fanboy (not accusing you either though...). ;)

 

If you read my first post thoroughly, you would see that i believe the F-22 would have a kill ratio of maybe 10:1 to 20:1 depending on the adversary. This is simply based on what i've read and a big amount of guessing, but it should show you that I appreciate the F-22 as an extremely effective combat aircraft.

 

If I was a Sukhoi-fanboy I would probably say something like: The Su-37 Terminator can wipe the floor with the F-22... I didn't ;)

[GGTharos]

Yeah well, too bad the last existing sample crashed eh ;)

 

The F-22 will be scary for a while. No one said it would be invincible, just that you're more likely than not to blow up while cruising in your flanker/fulcrum/eagle/viper without ever knowing what hit you.

[Vault]

Are you answering me or topol-m?

 

It wasn't an answer it was a statement. It was aimed at those who think that the Ibris-E is superiour to the AN/APG-77.

 

I said russian IR optics are effective and may pose a threat to any aircraft.

I think in a realistic scenario any fighter trying to engage an F-22 using either IRST EOTS PIRATE system will be dead long before it could get a stable IR track.

 

Why does it "annoy" you that people compare??

It "annoys" me because anyone who argues any kind of Russian fighter could beat an F-22 never backs their argument up withany decent solid facts.

[Maximus_G]

Not really ;)

At what ranges a modern onboard EOTS can detect a single-engine fighter with and without afterburner, head-on aspect, med-high altitude?

[GGTharos]

30km head on? That's with AB.

[nscode]

Intresting that while US is going for 360 EOS coverage, russians are moving towords 360 radar view

[topol-m]

As one big part of F-22s and su-35/su-37s systems and stats are still classified it will be pure theory to determine who is going to win in an eventual conflict. And even if they werent classified such predictions are difficult to maka considering the number of factors that are involved (i doubt there will be a fight over the pacific 1on 1 with no AWACS, SAM, radar, etc. support). All im saying americans are promoting their weaponry like its some kind of a miracle technology, like some super advanced alien stuff and its funny and stupid at the same time. Check this out: i`ve recently seen a video of Colt representative thats saing their M4 rifle is still the best, while tests prove that rifles like hk416 are several times more reliable in extreme enviroments (dust, water...) and are not blowing up in your hands like the "most reliable super weapon m4" :megalol: Thats just an example.

 

GGtharos you are quick to advertise the F-22 and wipe the hell out of all the russian ground and air forces (why not the navy too) with it with just minimal losses :lol: You must be receiving payment from US government :thumbup: Man just wait for it to enter a real war with matching adversary not some local conflict where complete air superiority is assured and your dealing with outdated weaponry and demoralized enemy. :music_whistling:

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Yeah well, too bad the last existing sample crashed eh ;)

 

The F-22 will be scary for a while. No one said it would be invincible, just that you're more likely than not to blow up while cruising in your flanker/fulcrum/eagle/viper without ever knowing what hit you.

You are more likely then not to blow up, without ever knowing what hit you, with the EOS/ET/AWACS combination then with radar homing missiles. F-22, from what I know does not have EOS.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[GGTharos]

I see you still don't understand. I'll explain once more.

 

EOS is a SHORT RANGE BACKUP to the radar which had issues with look-down capability, as well as for when bombers used their powerful ECM.

 

It is NOT a replacement NOR a competitor for a radar. It is THE BACKUP. The primary instrument is still the radar, and the F-22's radar is still a low-probability-intercept instrument that is difficult to detect. You are very likely to have no clue what hit you when it attacks you.

 

The ET isn't even a competitor to MRM's.

 

You are more likely then not to blow up, without ever knowing what hit you, with the EOS/ET/AWACS combination then with radar homing missiles. F-22, from what I know does not have EOS.

[GGTharos]

Passive SA enhancement for close quarters ... US had ideas about 360 deg coverage as well but it turned out to be impractical for now.

 

Intresting that while US is going for 360 EOS coverage, russians are moving towords 360 radar view

[GGTharos]

As one big part of F-22s and su-35/su-37s systems and stats are still classified it will be pure theory to determine who is going to win in an eventual conflict.

 

That's pretty amusing for you to say given that Air Forces uses such predictions to build their fighters - among other things. The Su-37 is not and was never a factor. The last prototype crashed, and it was a flight control demonstrator, not a combat demonstrator.

 

The Su-35 is finally a reasonable match for a modern F-15C, but then the F-22 eats those up for breakfast.

 

And even if they werent classified such predictions are difficult to maka considering the number of factors that are involved (i doubt there will be a fight over the pacific 1on 1 with no AWACS, SAM, radar, etc. support).

 

You're right, it is difficult. That's why air forces around the world use intelligence and combat simulations ;)

 

All im saying americans are promoting their weaponry like its some kind of a miracle technology, like some super advanced alien stuff and its funny and stupid at the same time. Check this out: i`ve recently seen a video of Colt representative thats saing their M4 rifle is still the best, while tests prove that rifles like hk416 are several times more reliable in extreme enviroments (dust, water...) and are not blowing up in your hands like the "most reliable super weapon m4" :megalol: Thats just an example.

 

That's nice of you to go employ a rifle PR gig to the USAF. Start reading about the F-22 and maybe you'll actually learn something ... any non-anecdotal description of the F-22 makes it out to be a part of an integrated USAF system and strategy to defeat their opponents. Not a wonder weapon.

 

GGtharos you are quick to advertise the F-22 and wipe the hell out of all the russian ground and air forces (why not the navy too) with it with just minimal losses :lol: You must be receiving payment from US government :thumbup: Man just wait for it to enter a real war with matching adversary not some local conflict where complete air superiority is assured and your dealing with outdated weaponry and demoralized enemy. :music_whistling:

 

Oh, like you're quick to advertise Russian SAMs without a shred of information to back yourself up? Grow up ;)

 

And here's the point: THERE IS no matching adversary. THAT is the point. The USA is NOT waiting for that, they are moving ahead.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The ET isn't even a competitor to MRM's.

I did not say ET is replacement for Medium Range Missiles (MRM?). MRM are either radar guided or radar homing, thus detectable. ET is IR homing. Range is different of course, however, Datalink does its wonders and Flanker can be anywhere without turning his radar on. That means very close to you, or when you made that turn not knowing you got Flanker or Fulcrum or PAK-FA on your six ... And you get ET in your rear end without ever knowing what hit you.

 

BTW AMRAM is not the only MRM out there. And we know from past conflicts that stealth can be successfully engaged with SAM's. If SAM can hit it, I would assume that AA can hit it as well.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP! ;)

[topol-m]

 

And here's the point: THERE IS no matching adversary. THAT is the point. The USA is NOT waiting for that, they are moving ahead.

 

You seem pretty sure about that, but the fact is it will become clear when you happen to fight agains Russia or China not against some talibans, serbians, etc. Well, history teach us best, when you underestimate your enemy the result is gonna hit you hard: you thought your U-2 spy planes are invulnerable and fly so high that can`t be reached by missile and what happened - 1 May 1960 one of these flying cofins was shot over Soviet territory and another was shot down over Cuba on 27 October 1962. :lol:

[GGTharos]

I did not say ET is replacement for Medium Range Missiles (MRM?). MRM are either radar guided or radar homing, thus detectable.

 

Not necessarily, but let's go with the purist view then - your usual ARH emits, and thus is detectable. For the last few seconds before you take a hit, and you're nt likely to evade it (This is the meaning of a high Pk). So yeah, from the purist point of you I agree, you're right.

 

 

ET is IR homing. Range is different of course, however, Datalink does its wonders and Flanker can be anywhere without turning his radar on. That means very close to you, or when you made that turn not knowing you got Flanker or Fulcrum or PAK-FA on your six ... And you get ET in your rear end without ever knowing what hit you.

 

Actually I would know. I know where they're going to come from, and it's likely my AWACS will notify my as well. My radar is no slouch either. ;)

 

On the other hand, if you're flying an F-22, you'll take a 120D in the face and it'll be nothing but sheer surprise.

 

BTW AMRAM is not the only MRM out there. And we know from past conflicts that stealth can be successfully engaged with SAM's. If SAM can hit it, I would assume that AA can hit it as well.

 

Yes. The F-117 was engaged successfuly after the planets and stars were aligned to ambush it. That should already tell you something, and to make it very clear, it was the exception that proved the rule ;)

[Teknetinium]

Su-47 design is even better then F-22 it takes more fuel more weapon inside, If Russians will use AESA or something else is unknown, witch engines unknown,u all can speculate who will detect who first and kill. But that will not lead anywhere. The question here is if Russians have Technology to produce radar reflecting materials for Flyable machines or something else as plasma. Everything else as radar, radar warning receiver, battle situation awareness and so on is already achieved to F-22s standard or better.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

Which is why the Valkyrie was canceled and bombers went from the 'omg go supersonic' concept to the 'fast subsonic and low' concept, as well as stealth.

 

What do you think Russia is going to do? Most of their fighters are falling apart, and there's less Su-35's than there's F-22's. The Su-35's would already have a match in the F-15, and an F-22 will eat them up.

 

And what about the Georgian conflict? Russian air force did quite poorly. They lost some pretty valuable airborne assets like that blinder.

 

The Chinese have a number of flankers with relatively out-dated hardware. It would be scary because they have a lot of aircraft and perhaps reasonable training, but they're lacking in technology for now.

 

Seriously, could you read up and educate yourself before making statements like the ones you're making?

 

If you really want to talk 'worthy adversary', start thinking India, Israel, and some European countries - at least in terms of technology and training.

 

Russia right now lacks both, and China lacks technology at least.

 

You seem pretty sure about that, but the fact is it will become clear when you happen to fight agains Russia or China not against some talibans, serbians, etc. Well, history teach us best, when you underestimate your enemy the result is gonna hit you hard: you thought your U-2 spy planes are invulnerable and fly so high that can`t be reached by missile and what happened - 1 May 1960 one of these flying cofins was shot over Soviet territory and another was shot down over Cuba on 27 October 1962. :lol: