RWR missile warning with SPJ

[SharkShaun]

I love the feature on the Jeff where SPJ pod could provide distance information about the incoming fox 3 missile track, not this feature seems very inconsistent. Sometimes I don't get any fox 3 missile warning until a few seconds after the aggressor has completely turned cold (guess this is not a SPJ problem), and sometimes RWR would show the missile is at the outer ring mark but it will still hit me in the butt. 

Is this a bug or a feature to model the real system? Even if I give the system several seconds to settle and detect the source, it can still be pretty unreliable and display the threat further than it should be.

[Napillo]

It won't always get it, I mean when the aggressor turns cold is when the missile has to turn on its seeker. The missile being on the outer is fine, it can't tell the distance from those, just the angle, so the most accurate angle is around the outside of the circle.

[Mike_Romeo]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:26 AM, SharkShaun said:

I love the feature on the Jeff where SPJ pod could provide distance information about the incoming fox 3 missile track, not this feature seems very inconsistent. Sometimes I don't get any fox 3 missile warning until a few seconds after the aggressor has completely turned cold (guess this is not a SPJ problem), and sometimes RWR would show the missile is at the outer ring mark but it will still hit me in the butt. 

Is this a bug or a feature to model the real system? Even if I give the system several seconds to settle and detect the source, it can still be pretty unreliable and display the threat further than it should be.

Are you flying a turn while the missile is incoming ? It belive it gets the distance info faster when you turn because triangulation is easier when not flying in a straight line.

[SharkShaun]

Interesting... I've always thought SPJ is simply better at detecting radar emission strength to determine the location of the threat. Usually what I do is a direct split-S if a missile is incoming, and apparently triangulation doesn't work well in that scenario (also because of RWR blind spots). Thanks for the info.

[AeriaGloria]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:48 AM, SharkShaun said:

Interesting... I've always thought SPJ is simply better at detecting radar emission strength to determine the location of the threat. Usually what I do is a direct split-S if a missile is incoming, and apparently triangulation doesn't work well in that scenario (also because of RWR blind spots). Thanks for the info.

What I found is that if you are lit up by a airplane or ground radar, it is ranged within 10 seconds

Howwver the logic for Fox 3 missiles is different, it will only range within 5 second timeframe if the missile is WITHIN 5-10 degrees of your nose or tail. 
 

I assume either it needs to use the full power of the front/rear antennas or utilize some doppler processing that requires a straight/front aspect view

Becuase of this, the missile is usually ranged when YOU are cold or flying straight into the target, if the missile is to your side it will never range. 
 

With new AIM-120 model, you can sometimes use this to pull a barrel roll for extremely long range shots when the missile is a few miles away and low on energy. Once the missile is ranged you can turn and keep the range, but that is basically the only scenario you can range the missile head on and survive becuase it takes 5 seconds to process and you need to be far away and in thick enough air that the missile is near transonic and you have the ability to maneuver fast 
 

I find it mostly only useful for when you are cold, that will give you plenty of time to see closing speed. Many times I can outrun a missile by just a few hundred feet becuase I can so precisely see if I need to use afterburner, or climb, or have the space and energy to set up for an attack.

So if the inconsistency bothers you that’s why, get that Fox 3 within 5-10 degrees of your nose or tail 

[SharkShaun]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:10 PM, AeriaGloria said:

What I found is that if you are lit up by a airplane or ground radar, it is ranged within 10 seconds

Howwver the logic for Fox 3 missiles is different, it will only range within 5 second timeframe if the missile is WITHIN 5-10 degrees of your nose or tail. 
 

I assume either it needs to use the full power of the front/rear antennas or utilize some doppler processing that requires a straight/front aspect view

Becuase of this, the missile is usually ranged when YOU are cold or flying straight into the target, if the missile is to your side it will never range. 
 

With new AIM-120 model, you can sometimes use this to pull a barrel roll for extremely long range shots when the missile is a few miles away and low on energy. Once the missile is ranged you can turn and keep the range, but that is basically the only scenario you can range the missile head on and survive becuase it takes 5 seconds to process and you need to be far away and in thick enough air that the missile is near transonic and you have the ability to maneuver fast 
 

I find it mostly only useful for when you are cold, that will give you plenty of time to see closing speed. Many times I can outrun a missile by just a few hundred feet becuase I can so precisely see if I need to use afterburner, or climb, or have the space and energy to set up for an attack.

So if the inconsistency bothers you that’s why, get that Fox 3 within 5-10 degrees of your nose or tail 

I tried this a bit more, and seems like it also needs to be relatively level with my jet, so more like a 10 degrees cone detection range. To put in context if a missile goes active on me, it shows no distance info initially, and I pull an aggressive vertical split S. During the maneuver I don't really get distance info, and it only starts showing after I have turned cold and become level with the missile chasing me. Sometimes I get confused whether it is showing distance or not (I wish they have a more obvious indicator) during the maneuver and don't defend enough, since the lethality ring can be misleading in distance scale. 

And yeah it's particularly useful for faster reengagement if you manage that distance nicely and also pull vertical in the process, since the jeff is already lacking in power and sus turn rate against jets like 18 and 16. It's not quite useful to range it head-on because when against a skilled opponent you typically gets TWS locked. It's so much safer to start defending by looking at their flight path before missile goes active. I'd rather range that thing with my butt as much as possible... 

I appreciate the info. 

[Napillo]

13 hours ago, SharkShaun said:

lethality ring

there is no such thing

[justAflankerFAN]

6 hours ago, Napillo said:

there is no such thing

How so? I though the ring as displayed in the "Jeff" HSD can be interpret as "Outer-ring = non-lethal" & "Inner-ring = Lethal" & the inner-most ring only function is to act as a compass
I understand that since the RWR gauge radar signature intensity, it could be misleading as something like the Tomcat or Eagle with its powerful radar can be seen as lethal by the RWR despite the aircraft still outside of AIM-120 employment range

Edited July 11, 2023 by justAflankerFAN