VR DCS pc requirements - newbie

[Qcumber]

16 hours ago, Ghostmaker said:

Haha, i really want to get this pc sorted so i can get on dcs, the kit in the quote... when they reply with the kit they will be using ill post it up on here and let me know your thoughts. 1400 quid isnt alot to be fair. A different gaming shop told me i need to spen at least £4,000.00 which put me off for starting up

It's really difficult when your starting out with VR to know what is acceptable to you. You might find that you can get what you need with a 4070 or 4080. You might also find that you spend the money on a 4090 and that does not give you what you want. I live in the Cambridge UK area so if you wanted to see how my set up works and are willing to travel give me a shout. 

[kksnowbear]

I would seriously consider taking Qcumber up on his very kind offer. The experience gained could be priceless to your venture...and he makes two very good points about the GPUs.

One of my "selling points" to potential buyers is that I will offer to let them sit down and "test drive" a proposed system, even for a couple hours if they want, so they can see how it performs as a system. I feel this helps distinguish me from a lot of other sellers, online or brick and mortar.

If you have a chance to see a setup like his/close to what you're considering, I'd jump on it. If he's the sort to have a drink time to time, I think I'd offer to bring him a little something as a gift, too 

Edited August 27, 2023 by kksnowbear

[Ghostmaker]

11 minutes ago, Qcumber said:

It's really difficult when your starting out with VR to know what is acceptable to you. You might find that you can get what you need with a 4070 or 4080. You might also find that you spend the money on a 4090 and that does not give you what you want. I live in the Cambridge UK area so if you wanted to see how my set up works and are willing to travel give me a shout. 

Hiya bud that would be great also, i work over norwich at raf Lakenheath alot, im on annual leave atm what part of cambridge are you from? Are you anywhere near stradishal, newmarket as i also work around that area

[kksnowbear]

On the whole connection thing, that's going to be a separate project I think...but I will say I think you're better off by far with a wired solution (*not* over power lines) if at all possible. Those power line adapters can be finicky, and wireless often leads to lag due to latency in the wireless radio signal.

[kksnowbear]

Also on the connection question:  What you could try is using the wireless at first, if it proves to be problematic, go another way.  You should only require one of the three from the house to the outbuilding: Wired, wireless, or power line adapter.  Try them in order of least costly (wireless) to most - including or skipping the power line adapters as you prefer. going instead directly to wired if that makes sense.

NOTE: This will mean your PC  has to support wireless, so it might be worth considering to get a motherboard that has wireless on it. Alternatively, small adapter cards are cheap and readily available. I would suggest avoiding USB interfaces/devices whenever possible.

Edited August 27, 2023 by kksnowbear

[Slippa]

I’m in England too. I’m gonna keep an eye on this thread as I need a better rig for DCS as well. Maybe not for VR but still, maybe sometime.

Good luck with getting it sorted Arron. Half of it’s gobbledegook to me once these things need looking into. Think yourself lucky you didn’t have to do everything during lockdowns like I did. I’m still sitting on a chair I should never have bought but along with the computer, peripherals and everything else, I was buying everything with my hands tied and blindfolded.

Good to read advice from people that know both PC bit and bobbery as well as what you’ll want for DCS. They’re not all trying to sell you anything either. 

Tune in for the next episode on Tuesday then… 

 

[Ghostmaker]

2 hours ago, Qcumber said:

 

Slippa, im glad your finding this thread helpful im learning alot from these guys. Never had so many helpful people. Yeah as you can read im a newbie to pc's so its very overwelming as ive had quotes thinking tjey will work but then found they wont be very good with vr after ive been told they vr ready systems... to someone who doesnt no anything about it all could have spend alot of money to find out its no good.

 

These guys may end up costi g me more money but... and i say it with great kindness that spending more or getting there help will hopefully get me a pc that works well with vr and is smooth so i dont get fed up

[Ghostmaker]

16 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Also on the connection question:  What you could try is using the wireless at first, if it proves to be problematic, go another way.  You should only require one of the three from the house to the outbuilding: Wired, wireless, or power line adapter.  Try them in order of least costly (wireless) to most - including or skipping the power line adapters as you prefer. going instead directly to wired if that makes sense.

NOTE: This will mean your PC  has to support wireless, so it might be worth considering to get a motherboard that has wireless on it. Alternatively, small adapter cards are cheap and readily available. I would suggest avoiding USB interfaces/devices whenever possible.

 

Yeah both quotes had built in wifi which was good. But may go down the hard wire option for best results.

Ive been sent a link to scan

https://www.scan.co.uk/shops/pro-gaming/pc-range#group1=tab2

Can you see on here which would be a great vr compatable pc at a good cost? 

 

They do low medium and high spec builds but myself putting it all together i may have a better chance at winning the lottery lol

[kksnowbear]

Looking over a few examples at the link you posted, I found the problem with the link is essentially the same as with the list above:  They are builders, and they're not disclosing many of the key specifics.

For example: No motherboard make/model listed.  No RAM make/model; RAM speeds are listed, but no CAS levels.  No power supply make/model - and no indication of whether the units are 80+ rated.  No SSD mfr/model. No GPU mfr/model...

All this should start to sound very familiar lol

As I mentioned previously, this is what they do.  They cite specs that are (very) general in nature, leaving all sorts of places where they can cut costs by putting in lesser brands, lesser models etc.  And again, the reason all these details matter is because, between them, they could alter the cost of a machine several hundreds of (insert currency here).

(Some of the high-end systems on that Scan site are 7000 GBP, and I'm not even sure how taxes would apply...they start to seem *way* overpriced...more on that in a separate post...)

Note there's absolutely nothing wrong with having someone else do a build for you, especially if you're not comfortable doing it yourself.  I do it for people all the time, and if it weren't for those who don't want to do it themselves, I'd be out of a job lol

But paying someone else to build it does *not* automatically mean you shouldn't be given details of the parts they're using.  This is the key.  In fact, what I sometimes do is take parts a customer has chosen for themselves (typically with advice, mind you) and then charge a fee to assemble/commission/overclock etc.  This removes any doubt about 'mark-up' on the parts themselves, and the client gets to pick/pay what they want (again, with advice to make sure it's compatible).  TBH it usually results in a more expensive system overall, but this approach offers complete transparency about cost of parts and labor.

Some people just prefer that; whereas some prefer to save a little by letting me spec parts - but even then, I always tell them exactly what they're getting.

Let me try this, so you can see what I mean.  When I give a quote to a customer, here's an example of what it might look like:

Motherboard: MSI X570-A Pro
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D
GPU: MSI GamingZ Trio Radeon RX 6900XT
RAM: 4x8G XPG Spectrix D50 DDR4-3600 CAS18 RGB
PSU: eVGA 850W 80+ Gold
CPU cooler: ID Cooling 240mm AIO liquid RGB
Boot drive: Samsung 980 Pro 250G NVMe SSD
OS: Win10 Pro x64
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 2TB NVMe SSD
Case: Antec DF600 Flux, Mid-Tower, Tempered Glass Side Panel

(Mind you this is only an example, intended strictly to illustrate my point about the details in a component listing/quote.  It is *not* intended as a list of anything you should be considering for your current build, nor to solicit opinions about the stuff I listed - I'm not quoting anything to anyone here, just showing how the list itself should look).

Notice that, for each item, there's a manufacturer and model specified, as well as 'secondary details' (like CAS level for RAM, or 80+ rating for power supplies).

It doesn't matter (yet) if you don't recognize the make/model or other details in the list, but they need to at least be present so you know specifically what you're considering.

Unfortunately, since (as with most all the pre-built vendors) they don't give details, it's really not possible to say whether any of the Scan systems is a good value for the price.  You could always throw money at the most expensive setup they offer - many do this, I regret having to say - but I seriously recommend not doing that.  You might actually be better off dealing with a local shop/custom build - but it's just going to depend on who's willing to give you the details as to which is a better deal.

One final thought here:  I'm not bad-mouthing the pre-builts (lol well not entirely...)  If someone doesn't mind the difference in brands/models and paying someone else to build it, those can be a reasonable option.  Some people just prefer to find the absolute lowest cost possible, and have no desire to build a system.  What I'm saying is that, in any case, I think it's important to know what you're paying for, regardless of cost or who builds it.

Hopefully all this makes sense.

Edited August 28, 2023 by kksnowbear

[DavidE]

I have used PC specialist for 2 computers (UK) in the past. You specify each component and they build it. Also found that this way it makes me more comfortable with changing out items over time. The first of the computers failed a few months ago after 11years, case and power supply were fine as over specified them initially. Found it relatively simple to put in a new motherboard etc, you can always buy a partially pre built motherboard, cooler, CPU, RAM bundle. Did this a long time ago and windows, drivers etc was a pain. This time the drivers self installed and my windows drive worked first time. All looks scary at first but got a lot of satisfaction in effectively building a PC from scratch.

Been very happy with the PC specialist route and their customer support.

[Qcumber]

1 hour ago, DavidE said:

Been very happy with the PC specialist route and their customer support.

I would vouch for that. The builder also also allows you to fit specific, named components, other than the GPU. 

https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/custom-pc/

 

[kksnowbear]

FWIW, even though I'm not in the UK and have not actually done business with them, I did - briefly - look over the PCSpecialist site as mentioned above.  It does appear that they allow you to pick, individually and specifically, from named components (and the brands are well-known).

So it does seem like a decent alternative, for sure.  And endorsements from fellow simmers here, that's a plus.

That said, it should also be mentioned that, of course, the final cost will matter...for example, it doesn't matter how good PCSpecialist is, if they charge twice as much for the desired components, probably still not the best approach.  To be accurate, I did *not* look at pricing at all.

Secondly, even though they do list components by make/model, they do still have better and worse brands and models among the choices.  For example, while they do have GPUs from Asus, the only other manufacturer they specify is PNY; the rest are back to 'generic' specs without a manufacturer or model.  In power supplies, it appears they only have Corsair units...nothing wrong with that, necessarily, Corsair makes some great PSUs.  But there are none of the other good manufacturers (Antec, eVGA, Seasonic, etc...) which you might get better pricing on...so you are somewhat limited.

Don't get me wrong - this does appear to be worth considering, just same as above, you have to pay attention to what you're getting - and at what price.  The Scan site seemed a good deal more expensive, but I haven't gone back for another look yet.

A business - almost any business - makes (or loses) money on inventory.  So if PCSpecialist limits the inventory choices in order to control costs, nothing wrong with it at all.  It is *definitely* a plus that they specify which brands/models and let you pick...just gotta watch price

One small thing I saw that I didn't like...PCSpecialist has Arctic MX4 thermal compound as an option, for an additional 9 GBP...that's a lot.  I use Artic MX4 as 'standard' on every build I do, at no extra cost.  So that does make me wonder about what the final build cost might tally up to (without actually looking at it, mind you).

[kksnowbear]

Back to the Scan prices for just a moment: Here's what I mean...below is a pic of a system at the local computer store (I love MicroCenter!!)  Even without all the details, this is a very high-end machine: 4090, 13900K CPU, 64G RAM, 2TB SSD, decent case etc...and it's $4000.  With tax, here, that's $4240.  And if I'm following about your taxes, it would be $4800 there (assuming the market is the same, and TBH it's probably not...but that's another discussion...)

At least *here*, even though it's still stupid expensive, I'd say it's "the going rate" for a system of that caliber.

Some of the Scan systems I looked at were 7000GBP, which is ~8800USD (this is before anyone's taxes).  I can't see a comparable system being worth that kind of money when it's *half* the cost here.

Now, we do have to consider that I am grossly uninformed about how the market is where you are...it could be perfectly normal there to pay *twice* what a comparable system costs in the States.  One reason I do know you pay more is the taxes.  But I am factoring in 20% taxes as you mentioned, so I'm not sure what explains the huge difference in costs - unless, like I said, it's just the market.

Anyhow, here's the system pic I mentioned above:

As a disclaimer, I do fully appreciate there are a lot of factors involved here...still...$8800 for something that sells for 4000?

Anyhow, back to the discussion

[kksnowbear]

@ Ghostmaker

Thing to do at this point is take the original list from the shop you posted above, then go to the PCSpecialist site and configure a system with the exact same options (as closely as possible)...and see what the cost looks like.

Of course, I'll be happy to help resolve any questions/differences, but get a comparison worked up and let's see what it looks like.  Since you  have no details from the shop yet, maybe at first just use 'generic' options from PCSpecialist, and we'll go from there.  Mind you it may wind up outrageous - but let's see

[Ghostmaker]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

@ Ghostmaker

Thing to do at this point is take the original list from the shop you posted above, then go to the PCSpecialist site and configure a system with the exact same options (as closely as possible)...and see what the cost looks like.

Of course, I'll be happy to help resolve any questions/differences, but get a comparison worked up and let's see what it looks like.  Since you  have no details from the shop yet, maybe at first just use 'generic' options from PCSpecialist, and we'll go from there.  Mind you it may wind up outrageous - but let's see

See looking at the pc specialist link thenk goi g to gaming pc, there seems to bw a lot of options of gear ive never heard of or lnow what it is or does lol. Ttying to run a comparisment was quite challanging. I sound quite thick here lol

[kksnowbear]

Don't worry about sounding think lol it's no problem.  Can't answer questions you don't ask, though...so fire at at will and we'll see how it goes.  If I stop answering, means either you exploded my mind or I got tired of stupid questions lol (just kidding of course).

Even if one thing at a time, tell me what you're wondering and I'll try to answer.

Suggestion: (If you don't have it already) create a text file or other word processing file...type in list of options you posted originally.  Then go over to PCSpecialist site and find something as close as you can on that site.  Add them to the PCSPecialist 'configure this system' tool, when it's all done you'll probably get a link you can share so others can look at the completed Bill of Materials.

This isn't fall-down easy (if you want to get a decent deal on a decent system).  I'll tell you right up front: many people build their own machines.  Of those who do *not*, few want to put the effort into the whole project, and they usually either wind up spending (way) too much (aka 'throwing money at the problem') or getting a pre-built with low-end parts but paying a price closer to average than it is to low-end.

Keep in mind the offer Qcumber kindly made: Go see it run.  If it's what you're looking for, then you needn't overspend on more powerful components (unless you want to).  If you want something a little more capable, then shop accordingly.

Here, I'll get you started:

Go to the PCSpecialist site, select "Configure a Custom PC".  Your list above says an Ryzen 5 7600 - that's an AMD CPU, so we're off and running.

Select AMD Based Custom PC

(like this):

[Ghostmaker]

4 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Don't worry about sounding think lol it's no problem.  Can't answer questions you don't ask, though...so fire at at will and we'll see how it goes.  If I stop answering, means either you exploded my mind or I got tired of stupid questions lol (just kidding of course).

Even if one thing at a time, tell me what you're wondering and I'll try to answer.

Suggestion: (If you don't have it already) create a text file or other word processing file...type in list of options you posted originally.  Then go over to PCSpecialist site and find something as close as you can on that site.  Add them to the PCSPecialist 'configure this system' tool, when it's all done you'll probably get a link you can share so others can look at the completed Bill of Materials.

This isn't fall-down easy (if you want to get a decent deal on a decent system).  I'll tell you right up front: many people build their own machines.  Of those who do *not*, few want to put the effort into the whole project, and they usually either wind up spending (way) too much (aka 'throwing money at the problem') or getting a pre-built with low-end parts but paying a price closer to average than it is to low-end.

Keep in mind the offer Qcumber kindly made: Go see it run.  If it's what you're looking for, then you needn't overspend on more powerful components (unless you want to).  If you want something a little more capable, then shop accordingly.

Yeah im going to take Qcumbers offer up, just need to see when i can get over to the see the system. If im happy with that then ill know where im kind of at. Id build it myself if.... i new what parts looked like and where they went as i do like to build and modify many things lol. All i keep doing is watching dcs you tube videos haha. This is my favourite f15 video at the mo.

 

 

[kksnowbear]

The AMD selection above presents the options shown below.  The CPU in your list is a Ryzen 5 7600, that takes a 'socket AM5' chipset motherboard.

Presto: (Note I am assuming we should avoid very expensive "Extreme" systems, at least for now.  The one in your list is not likely an 'extreme build, and we're trying to come up with a comparison for that.)

Great video.  Watch it for motivation if you need to - but for now, let's focus on what you asked about

[kksnowbear]

Odd twist, when you pick the box as above, it dumps you to the "Extreme Computers" choice (unless you want AM4, which we do not: Your list above is an AM5 build, as discussed already).

(Note, don't worry, it's not really "extreme" just because it's an AM5 trust me.  That's just a label they put on it, nothing to fret about.)

Edited August 28, 2023 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

Finally!! A list of stuff to pick from  

1. Case: The original list didn't mention a case, so maybe just use something basic (cheap) for now  (you can slip through the choices, though and see if something interests you particularly).

2. Core Components...now we're talking...see if you can go through this list and match what's in your original list:

AMD Ryzen 5 7600 (first drop-down box/CPU) - check!

Motherbaord: They only have two brands of boards, Gigabyte and Asus.  Of those two, I'd pick Asus.  There are 4 different types of boards that suppport an AM5 CPU (as yours is...remember?).  Here's a guide, please read it: >AM5 Chipsets Discussion<  In this case, I've selected the Prime B650 board.  Asus Prime models are less expensive that the "enthusiast'-grade ROG Strix and TUF boards - those are the 'overclocking' type boards that were mentioned earlier in the conversation.  You're just getting into this, and I don't see those as something you'd be in for, because I don't see you doing a whole bunch of "tweaking", overclocking, etc blah blah.  650 vs 670 and Extreme vs standard as choices we're going to have to discuss further - but for our comparison right now, I'm just going to use the B650.  I am betting the shop will be using a similar, entry-level type board as well...we'll see.

Nvidia 4070 (per your list) - check (using a generic unit here, remember we're just trying to come up with a comparison...we can always come back and change stuff later I am sure)

RAM: Again, brands are limited here: You either buy Corsair or you don't get higher speeds.  I should hope the list above includes *at least* 5600MHz RAM (we'll see tomorrow hopefully)...but the only option at that point is COrsair 5600, so that's what I went with.

There.  It took *way* more time to type all this and get/edit the pics, and you're well on your way.  All the major components are selected.

Edited August 28, 2023 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

Take what I've done and see if you can run with it.  Read the article about chipsets. It's not long and it's very informative.

Ask any questions. 

As I said, this will require some effort, but it's not insurmountable.  Hopefully by tomorrow - when the shop responds - we'll be able to say which is a better deal.

Figure out what you can do to get to try out Qcumber's system; that's almost certain to be invaluable information in the midst of all this.

Now...Aren't you glad you asked?  

[Ghostmaker]

Im certainly glad i asked. Next will be a cupa t or a honey Rum. To read it all digest and see what i can figure out. Hopefully the shop responds tomorrow as well

[kksnowbear]

Yessir, you got it.  Enjoy your tea while reading the chipset article I'm gonna run off here for a while anyhow (dinner time in the USA!) Meantime you come up with whatever questions you may have.

[Ghostmaker]

The guy who i bought the HP Reverb from sent me another list of kit below saying this ia what you need for the vr setup. What are your thoughts - the company is call Scan

[joso]

1450 EURO 

CPU AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D 3,4 GHz AM4 BOX Codice prodotto:: 100-100000651WOF	1	€ 294,90	€ 294,90
Alimentatore Seasonic G12 80 PLUS Gold Modulare 850 Watt Codice prodotto:: G12-GM-850	1	€ 98,80	€ 98,80
Case Raijintek Arcadia III Midi-Tower nero Codice prodotto:: 0R20B00224	1	€ 35,00	€ 35,00
Dissipatore ad Aria DeepCool AG620 120mm Nero Codice prodotto:: R-AG620-BKNNMN-G-1	1	€ 55,10	€ 55,10
Pasta Termica Kolink Core TX-6 1.5 gr Codice prodotto:: KL-TX8-1	1	€ 2,50	€ 2,50
Scheda Video MSI NVIDIA GEFORCE RTX 4070 VENTUS 3X 12G OC GDDR6X Codice prodotto:: V513-057R	1	€ 636,70	€ 636,70
RAM Kingston FURY Renegade DDR4 32GB (2x16) 3600MHz CL16 Codice prodotto:: KF436C16RB1K2/32	1	€ 84,00	€ 84,00
Ventole Arctic P12 PWM PST ARGB 0db nero 120 mm kit da 3 pezzi Codice prodotto:: ACFAN00232A	1	€ 33,00	€ 33,00
SSD M.2 Kingston Technology FURY Renegade 1 TB PCIe 4.0 3D TLC NVMe Codice prodotto:: SFYRS/1000G	1	€ 64,90	€ 64,90
Scheda Madre AMD MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk AM4 ATX Codice prodotto:: 7C91-001R	1	€ 142,40	€ 142,40

Edited August 31, 2023 by joso