F-4E bombing modes real world usage?

[QuiGon]

On 4/7/2024 at 3:34 AM, Kirk66 said:

For all the whining about dive toss and Pave Spike, when I was using them they were definitely the way to go if you expected to hit anything in a tactical scenario

Does that mean all the other modes were rather useless in practical use?

[SuperKermit]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb QuiGon:

Does that mean all the other modes were rather useless in practical use?

Considering that the target and IP positions can be only entered in 100ft increments into the WRCS (plus INS drift error) it seems clear to me, that for non-nuclear weapons delivery all the computer guided delivery modes are rather useless.

[Temetre]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb QuiGon:

Does that mean all the other modes were rather useless in practical use?

Some seem completely useless for non-nuclear, others seem very niche, like Dive Laydown for horizontal clusterbomb delivery.

But even Dive Toss apparently was reliant on good maintenance and well trained pilot/WSO, and thats the 'easiest' to use mode.

Edited April 8, 2024 by Temetre

[Kirk66]

On 4/8/2024 at 6:11 AM, QuiGon said:

Does that mean all the other modes were rather useless in practical use?

Well they all had defined use cases, it's just that some vere very weapon specific (all the ARBCS modes were really for nukes). And when you are mainly dropping dumb bombs, some modes were not really necessary. For low drag bombs, Dive Toss was the way to go - if it worked. For high drag bombs, you are dropping so low that it was easier to just go direct. CBU was a push (remember,  you are usually dropping 6 or so of those puppies at a time). Lofting dumb bombs is fun but dumb. You could loft LGBs and use Spike to guide them pretty effectively.

We did practice nukes (visual and radar) using LADD and Laydown. And LADD numbers were available as a backup for LGB lofts.

So think A-4 with LGBs and you are pretty close. Which isn't a bad thing, considering the A-4 was designed to drop bombs; the F-4 was designed to drop Migs...

[Kalasnkova74]

5 hours ago, Kirk66 said:

Well they all had defined use cases, it's just that some vere very weapon specific (all the ARBCS modes were really for nukes)…….CBU was a push (remember,  you are usually dropping 6 or so of those puppies at a time). .

Supporting this point, the Israeli Defense Force/Air Force used loft attacks with CBU to suppress Arab AAA in the Yom Kippur war. While the gunners were ducking CBU, the rest of the Kurnass strikers then hit the main target. Given the threat - like SA-6s which didn’t trigger alerts on their RWR and murderously dense AAA - it was probably the best tool in the drawer . 

[SgtPappy]

14 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Supporting this point, the Israeli Defense Force/Air Force used loft attacks with CBU to suppress Arab AAA in the Yom Kippur war. While the gunners were ducking CBU, the rest of the Kurnass strikers then hit the main target. Given the threat - like SA-6s which didn’t trigger alerts on their RWR and murderously dense AAA - it was probably the best tool in the drawer . 

Possibly next to the ALQ-119 which could suppress the tracking radar of the ZSU AAA, allowing the Kurnass crews to fly low more often. They could avoid SA-6 locks with less fear of being sniped by AAA. My gut feeling is these were only available in tiny numbers in the last few jets that arrived during Rivet Haste.

[Coenraad]

Very interesting read. So reading between the lines of "when it worked". I take direct was use mostly still, or was it working often enough to actually be used more than the backup direct? 

Have tried a few modes, Loft was really good fun with the IP and the plane calculating popup. And as long as you fly the numbers it is decently accurate. 

 

DT for LD and Direct for HD and dispenser have been my go to for now though. As well as direct when an Apache is buddylasing in Multiplayer (very fun). 

The DL mode for HD bombs i need to try as it looks like good fun. 

 

Very interesting read. So reading between the lines of "when it worked". I take direct was use mostly still, or was it working often enough to actually be used more than the backup direct? 

Have tried a few modes, Loft was really good fun with the IP and the plane calculating popup. And as long as you fly the numbers it is decently accurate. 

 

DT for LD and Direct for HD and dispenser have been my go to for now though. As well as direct when an Apache is buddylasing in Multiplayer (very fun). 

The DL mode for HD bombs i need to try as it looks like good fun. 

 

[PhantomHans]

All the PaveSpike talk makes me wonder...

I know it was a USAF system but did the Navy ever try (I suspect probably not...) integrating it into the F-4 or F-14 to provide an early targeting pod capability?

 

I expect probably not but with all the crazy stuff that was tested back in the day...  Somewhere I've got a photo of an F-4 with a pair of ALQ-71s hung off the center mount of TERs on the inboards and I think with MK82s or something else on the TERs at the same time...

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

All the PaveSpike talk makes me wonder...

I know it was a USAF system but did the Navy ever try (I suspect probably not...) integrating it into the F-4 or F-14 to provide an early targeting pod capability?

Ed Cobleigh wrote of a joint assignment he drew to “teach” the Navy how to use LGBs. The first system was the “Zot Box” that required the WSO in a USAF F-4D to laze the target from the backseat (predating Pave Spike) , so a USAF pilot needed to brief the Navy on how it worked so they could collaborate on the sortie. 

To put it mildly, interservice politics killed that plan. The Navy assigned F-8 (!) pilots to participate, and they weren’t fans of anything not associated with killing MiGs. Much less bombing with the Air Force. Cobleigh authored a study proposing USAF buddy lazing for Navy strikes, but it went nowhere.