native support for ffb pedals in progress Apache Force Trim with FFB Pedals and FFB Joystick

[Rechs]

Are there any plans to support multiple DirectX FFB devices in DCS? I just got a Brunner MKII FFB joystick and MKII FFB pedals with the assumption that I’d be able to replicate full force trim functionality, given the fact that DCS lists “instant trim/FFB friendly” option for both cyclic and pedals. Based on that fact alone I assumed everything would work properly, but that is not the case. When I put both the cyclic and pedals in DirectX FFB mode (native DCS support) and enable “instant trim/FFB friendly” mode for both, the cyclic works as it should. The pedals, however, just replicate whatever the cyclic does. For example:

Starting with the cyclic and pedals centered (verified via controls graphic overlay), press force trim interrupt, move cyclic left, release force trim interrupt. The cyclic stays in place in the new “center” location (like it should), but the pedals move left (both physically and input-wise) by the same amount as the cyclic X-axis deflection (without touching them or giving any pedal input). It’s as if there is only one set of FFB input in DCS, and both devices are being treated as one. It’s been pretty frustrating trying to figure out a workable solution. For now I took the pedals out of DirectX mode and disabled centering force in Brunner software while selecting “rudder with no springs or FFB” in DCS. The pedals now function like a regular set without springs and with a damper kit. Still, not exactly why I bought them.

One other thing I noticed is that for force trim to work properly, there can’t be any curves applied to the cyclic X and Y axis. If a curve is applied, then the new cyclic position after trimming ends up being offset from the red trim X location on the graphical controls overlay, and the difference in locations seems to be proportional to the amount of curve modification applied. This definitely seems like a bug. Best I can tell is after you apply a curve, cyclic sensitivity is modified accordingly but FFB input isn’t, leading to a pretty large discrepancy. 

 

Edited April 28 by Rechs
Added detail

[MAXsenna]

We can hope DCS will support FFB pedals in the future, even when others have made DYI kits work. Curves are not to be used with FFB, so that's not a bug. Get an extension even if the Brunner might not be strong enough. Any reason you went with Brunner and not the Rhino?

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[Rechs]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

We can hope DCS will support FFB pedals in the future, even when others have made DYI kits work. Curves are not to be used with FFB, so that's not a bug. Get an extension even if the Brunner might not be strong enough. Any reason you went with Brunner and not the Rhino?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Understood on the curves. It’s been about 25 years since I last used anything FFB so I’m learning and re-learning.

 

The new MKII Brunner stick (came out about a month ago) is ~50% stronger than the old CLS-E model. It’s plenty strong for a 30cm extension and that’s what I’m using. I had very mild curves applied to a Virpil CM2 base with the same extension so I didn’t give it much thought, just copied the settings over.

 

I went with Brunner for two reasons: availability and integration with their pedals. In Brunner’s native software mode, the pedals link to the stick via Ethernet cable and show up in the same profile. Makes it much easier to switch between different profiles. Also, Brunner devices can be networked to link two sets of controls, as in a physical two-seat aircraft.

 

 

 

Edited May 1 by Rechs
Clarity

[MAXsenna]

Understood on the curves. It’s been about 25 years since I last used anything FFB so I’m learning and re-learning.
 
The new MKII Brunner stick (came out about a month ago) is ~50% stronger than the old CLS-E model. It’s plenty strong for a 30cm extension and that’s what I’m using. I had very mild curves applied to a Virpil CM2 base with the same extension so I didn’t give it much thought, just copied the settings over.
 
I went with Brunner for two reasons: availability and integration with their pedals. In Brunner’s native software mode, the pedals link to the stick via Ethernet cable and show up in the same profile. Makes it much easier to switch between different profiles. Also, Brunner devices can be networked to link two sets of controls, as in a physical two-seat aircraft.
 
 
 

Oooh! Didn't know that! Thanks for the heads up!
Cheers!

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[Raptor9]

@Rechs, I asked the developers about using force feedback stick and pedals simultaneously, and unfortunately force-feedback pedals are not natively supported within DCS at this time; force feedback information is only sent to the stick. They are working on implementing it, but I'm afraid I don't have any estimates for when this will be achieved.

I've updated the tag to this thread accordingly so other players know the status of this issue. Thank you for the feedback.

[Rechs]

@Raptor9, it's great to hear that the developers are tracking it and that there is a plan for integration. I'm definitely looking forward to the day it gets implemented. Thank you for escalating this to the right people. 

[corbu1]

Thank you @Raptor9 ! This is great news the team is working on FFB for pedals!

[shwed]

 

[Rechs]

Another user requested the addition of a separate channel for FFB collectives (Brunner makes one). Since it sounds like the dev team is already looking at this, I think it makes sense to combine the requests. Here is the thread: 

Brunner FFB collective: https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-p-collective/

[zerO_crash]

Normally, this thread should be moved to "DCS Core Wish List". This isn't a AH-64D specific question, but one on general engine implementation. It would make sense to have this thread merged with others (prior to this one) in the DCS Core, to visualize the demand (part of it, most people within DCS don't even parrticipate on the forums.). Seeing, however, how people don't always know where to look, it can stay here with the label. That way, more will know that things are moving ahead.
 

ED has been aware of some of us wanting FFB for pedals (multiple FFB output channels) for a way longer time than the threads above have been linked. The reason some of them are fresh, is because we have had to push on ED to not forget it. However, with the inception of Brunner, and Shwed having sent ED better equipment (they have, if I remember two MSFFB2 joysticks from before), things are finally picking up speed. Availability of cheap FFB overall, allows dor increased demand for these features. We should see improvements and even better support down the line from now.