Which year do F-4E got AN/APR-46?

[Mig Fulcrum]

As the title say... WHEN?

I'm a little confused because HB stated the DSCG variant will be based on a 1974 configuration.

But from my research it looks like the AN/APR-46 with IP-1310 Azimuth Indicator replaced the IP-957 with AN/APR-36 in Dec 1983, 9 years later.

Also, it looks like the F-4E didn't get AN/ALE-40 before 1977 so the "1974" date HB told is even more confusing to me.

I hope someone smarter can help me with my research or even Heatblur itself because all these equipment (AN/ALE-40 and APR-46) seems more logic for the DMAS (which should be around 1979-1980) but for DSCG would be better a APR-36, at least from my knowlege.

Maybe 1974 is just DSCG upgrade from DVST?

[LanceCriminal86]

It's not a "1974" jet, that year was used to represent the core time by which DSCG and slat modifications were performed on most early serial jets. The other items like ALR-46 and ALE-40 were being added to new aircraft around 71/72 FY serials, and slowly were making their way to older serial jets through the mid-70s and onwards. With Phantoms spread across the globe, it would take time for jets to rotate back through stateside or a depot to have modifications made, so it's not unheard of that jets wouldn't solidly have everything even through the later 70s.

The DSCG jets will also include some of the later modifications to include AIM-7M and AIM-9M compatibility, so they naturally are not a "1974" jet as they can employ later 80s update weapons. It will also allow for other weapons that were out of USAF inventory by the mid-70s and onwards, namely Bullpups, as the capability was apparently never removed.

The DMAS itself isn't a "79/80" jet either, it's effectively mid-80s as that's about when the modifications were completed adding DMAS/ARN-101 to TISEO equipped jets, plus the same changes made to the DSCG jets allowing AIM-7M/9M use.

[Mig Fulcrum]

7 ore fa, LanceCriminal86 ha scritto:

It's not a "1974" jet, that year was used to represent the core time by which DSCG and slat modifications were performed on most early serial jets. The other items like ALR-46 and ALE-40 were being added to new aircraft around 71/72 FY serials, and slowly were making their way to older serial jets through the mid-70s and onwards. With Phantoms spread across the globe, it would take time for jets to rotate back through stateside or a depot to have modifications made, so it's not unheard of that jets wouldn't solidly have everything even through the later 70s.

The DSCG jets will also include some of the later modifications to include AIM-7M and AIM-9M compatibility, so they naturally are not a "1974" jet as they can employ later 80s update weapons. It will also allow for other weapons that were out of USAF inventory by the mid-70s and onwards, namely Bullpups, as the capability was apparently never removed.

The DMAS itself isn't a "79/80" jet either, it's effectively mid-80s as that's about when the modifications were completed adding DMAS/ARN-101 to TISEO equipped jets, plus the same changes made to the DSCG jets allowing AIM-7M/9M use.

Sorry, I don't want to be mean but I think you're incorrect.

It's impossible F-4s start reciving ALR-46 in 1971/1972 since in thoose years the ALR-36 start to be mounted on F-4E (around 1969/1972) replacing the older AN/APS-107.

Ultimately it's hard to belive that F-4 have the -46 so early when F-14 still have the ALR-45 until mid '80s. 

 

About DMAS I don' really know much about it so if you have more precise info or source about its dates it would be appreciated. Thanks a lot

[Phantom12]

The pamphlet I linked below and at least one book I have mentions the -46 coming into service in early 70s.

https://www.aef.se/Avionik/Artiklar/Motmedel/Nya_hotbilder/RadarWarnStory.pdf

The book mentions 1973 but refers to F-4Cww aircraft. Given their role maybe they got priority. Anyway if the units were available I don't see why they wouldn't have been installed along with Slats etc when the aircraft were upgraded in 74ish timeframe.

 

@LanceCriminal86 If we exclude/don't use weapons integrated in the 80s the the aircraft are generally representative of an overhauled mid 70s jet though correct?

[Temetre]

To avoid confusion, its the ALR-46, not APR-46. Thats based on an earlier confusion^^

Our F-4E got the OOFP-5 or so modifications as well, thats also around 1980. The base configuration of the plane is older tho; and if you limit equipment accordingly, its very close to a late cold war F-4E. This stuff gives a bit more flexibility for when you use the F-4E in other scenarios, or with foreign liveries/places etc.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Mig Fulcrum:

Ultimately it's hard to belive that F-4 have the -46 so early when F-14 still have the ALR-45 until mid '80s. 

I dont know why taht would be hard to believe. The 80s F-14s got a much more capable ALR' RWR than the Phantoms -46.

[Mig Fulcrum]

18 minuti fa, Temetre ha scritto:

To avoid confusion, its the ALR-46, not APR-46. Thats based on an earlier confusion^^

Our F-4E got the OOFP-5 or so modifications as well, thats also around 1980. The base configuration of the plane is older tho; and if you limit equipment accordingly, its very close to a late cold war F-4E. This stuff gives a bit more flexibility for when you use the F-4E in other scenarios, or with foreign liveries/places etc.

I dont know why taht would be hard to believe. The 80s F-14s got a much more capable ALR' RWR than the Phantoms -46.

Yeah thanks for the clarification. Every time I typed APR-46 I was meaning ALR-46.

But still, the -46 is a more capable RWR being a 2nd gen and it show more information, not only "sticks" like APR-36 or ALR-45 (that's why i am confused about the F-14 too, I don't understand why you said ALR-45 was a much capable RWR compared to ALR-46.

Based on HB screenshots that's a ALR-46: (even if it say APR-36 but they stated it was a typo, just to add confusion lol)

And this is a ALR-45

Edited April 29 by Mig Fulcrum

[Temetre]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Mig Fulcrum:

Yeah thanks for the clarification. Every time I typed APR-46 I was meaning ALR-46.

But still, the -46 is a more capable RWR being a 2nd gen and it show more information, not only "sticks" like APR-36 or ALR-45 (that's why i am confused about the F-14 too, I don't understand why you said ALR-45 was a much capable RWR compared to ALR-46.

My bad, I was being too vague as well xD

I ment to say, when the F-14 upgraded in the 80/90s to the ALR-67, that was vastly more advanced than than the ALR-46. The F-14 kinda skipped the F-4E Phantoms ALR-46. AFAIK those two RWRs might also be closer than they look; the F-14 just has an outdated display scheme for the most part. But the ALR-45 has lights for certain SAM systems, like it can show "SA6" when it identifies that one of the contacts is an SA6. It just doesnt show which one.

 

If I had to make a guess, the reason is almost certainly cost and necessity. Doing a 45 -> 46 upgrade for the Tomcat wouldnt be cheap, and who knows how much the system would need to be adjusted for the Tomcat. F14s likely already burned a hole in the Navys budget without extra upgrades, and this is while Vietnam is going on.

On the other hand, the F-4E probably needed the RWR also much more; it was much more active in Vietnam, and operating close to north-vietnamese SAMs, while having to react to regular Mig' ambushes. Many Phantoms were lost after all. Thats likely the main reason why our F-4E is stuffed with an almost absurd amount of tech for a 60s airframe, it was one of the most important active combatants of the USAF (and USN to a degree).

 

Otoh, the poor amazing Tomcat was always a bit behind in terms of upgrades, suffering from cost, post-Vietnam budget cuts and a role that never got quite relevant. Thats my assumptoin, might be wrong of course  

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Mig Fulcrum:

Based on HB screenshots that's a ALR-46: (even if it say APR-36 but they stated it was a typo, just to add confusion lol)

Best thing is, on the A-10 the cockpits RWR-screen actually has an APR-36 marking. But while they kept that screen, the tech behind it was upgraded multiple times with digital RWRs. I think that mightve been part why even Heatblur got confused about it on the Phantom  

Maybe thats also the case for the F-4E? An APR-36 screen with ALR-46 tech behind it.

Edited April 29 by Temetre

[Mig Fulcrum]

13 minuti fa, Temetre ha scritto:

Maybe thats also the case for the F-4E? An APR-36 screen with ALR-46 tech behind it.

 

Probably, but it's a bit odd since in-cockpit RWR doesn't really show the model like AN/ALR-36(V) but usually just the type of the screen like we have in the F-5E in game.

It is IP-1310 for ALR-46 and IP-957 for APR-36, at least from my knowlege.

 

Beside this, do you think that our DSCG with AN/ALE-40 and ALR-46 would be feasable as a 1974 platform? With weapon restriction of course.

[Temetre]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Mig Fulcrum:

Probably, but it's a bit odd since in-cockpit RWR doesn't really show the model like AN/ALR-36(V) but usually just the type of the screen like we have in the F-5E in game.

It is IP-1310 for ALR-46 and IP-957 for APR-36, at least from my knowlege.

At least on the A-10 it says APR-36, despite an ALR being behind it^^

Its weird tbh xD

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Mig Fulcrum:

Beside this, do you think that our DSCG with AN/ALE-40 and ALR-46 would be feasable as a 1974 platform? With weapon restriction of course.

I think so, the ALR-46 would be early 70s, so youd have a recently upgraded F-4E. Those even flew in late vietnam I think.

Now Im not sure what the AN/ALE-40 changed tho; but I imagine its just more capacity? Could easier just ignore that detail, or limit countermeasures.

[Phantom12]

Idk which manual OP is referencing but from what I can tell it was added on the production line as of block 56. If I understand correctly thats late 72 production. Retrofit may obviously be a somewhat different timeframe.

[Temetre]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Phantom12:

Idk which manual OP is referencing but from what I can tell it was added on the production line as of block 56. If I understand correctly thats late 72 production. Retrofit may obviously be a somewhat different timeframe.

Yup, thats my understanding too. Has some later upgrades like the 'dogfight-mode'/CAA switches.

[SgtPappy]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:42 PM, Temetre said:

At least on the A-10 it says APR-36, despite an ALR being behind it^^

Its weird tbh xD

I think so, the ALR-46 would be early 70s, so youd have a recently upgraded F-4E. Those even flew in late vietnam I think.

Now Im not sure what the AN/ALE-40 changed tho; but I imagine its just more capacity? Could easier just ignore that detail, or limit countermeasures.

To my knowledge, the latest F-4E's that fought in Vietnam only ever had the APR-36/37. I'd be glad to be proven wrong though. 

And correct me if I didn't understand the original question but the ALE-40 adds chaff and flare dispensers to the F-4E. Before then, no Air Force F-4 could dispense chaff or flares other than the big dedicated chaff bombing pods.

[Stackup]

5 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

F-4E's that fought in Vietnam only ever had the APR-36/37

Maybe HB will change their mind about adding it.  They're already doing a strobe RWR for the Tomcat and have gone back on changes to that they said they weren't gonna do.  Or maybe they'll give us a Vietnam era navy F-4.

[Jacknemo]

A better question would be "Which year do we get an F-4?".

[Mig Fulcrum]

The coolest thinkg IMHO would be:

1) release the F-4 DCSG like it is now with ALR-46

2) release DMAS with the intended uprgades

3) revisit the DCSG with a late vietnam configuration (retain slats but modify RWR to a APR-36 and remove other "post-war" features)

 

This way there are no imminent changes that cause delays but there is time to modify during EA.

Just my opinion

[Phantom12]

I thought it had been mentioned already that they hoped to do an APR-36 at some point if time etc permitted. I can't remember where it was mentioned but it was pending the new RWR tech etc and definitely an "I want to do this but can't promise" sort of thing.

[Temetre]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb SgtPappy:

Before then, no Air Force F-4 could dispense chaff or flares other than the big dedicated chaff bombing pods.

I see, didnt know the USAF didnt use flare dispensers before. Thats funny.

But yeh, if you wanna simulate that, gotta zero the flare/chaff in the editor.

[jinzai]

On 4/28/2024 at 10:05 PM, Mig Fulcrum said:

As the title say... WHEN?

I'm a little confused because HB stated the DSCG variant will be based on a 1974 configuration.

But from my research it looks like the AN/APR-46 with IP-1310 Azimuth Indicator replaced the IP-957 with AN/APR-36 in Dec 1983, 9 years later.

Also, it looks like the F-4E didn't get AN/ALE-40 before 1977 so the "1974" date HB told is even more confusing to me.

I hope someone smarter can help me with my research or even Heatblur itself because all these equipment (AN/ALE-40 and APR-46) seems more logic for the DMAS (which should be around 1979-1980) but for DSCG would be better a APR-36, at least from my knowlege.

Maybe 1974 is just DSCG upgrade from DVST?

FWIW -- I arrived at my first duty station in February of 1983 and was an ECM flightline worker. The F-4Es at George AFB were a mixture of airframes from 1967-1975 and all had AN/ALR-46 and AN/ALE-40, with the capacity to fly with AN/ALQ-119 jamming pods. The F-4G WWs were assigned to the 37th TFW and the F-4Es were assigned to the 35th TFW. At that time, the A-10 was using the same systems. IIRC, the F-16 used AN/ALR-69 because it was designed to be used in an integrated avionics airframe, which the F-4 never was designed for, or retrofitted for.

 

Personally, I would like the ability to use the same RHAW and countermeasures that were equipped in the aircraft I worked on, however -- in Vietnam scenarios, it would not be historically accurate.