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Aerial Refueling Bugs

MavOne96

By MavOne96
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MavOne96

MavOne96

Posted
Posted

Hello,

Today I've made a training mission for aerial refueling and I have tried multiple configurations with empty and full external tanks (3 tanks, 2 wing tanks and 1 centerline tank) and I have found several bugs:

  • no matter how long I have been waiting connected to the boom I have never received the "transfer complete" message (even with all tanks full) but I only received it when pressing Air Refuel Release Button (even when the transfer was not fully done)
  • with a cold start there were inconsistencies regarding the "Full" green lights, sometimes when tanks were full they didn't light up 
  • if disconnected from the boom when full, system doesn't lock as it should, the "Ready" light remains on
  • one time Jester locked up in a loop repeating non-sensical indications on how to approach the boom even when I was departed from the tanker

P.S This module is amaizing and I really want to see it succeed as it is clear how much effort and passion went into it.

 

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Cobra847

Cobra847

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, MavOne96 said:

CAZ-Crimson_Sky_Cadets_v.0.18-20240526-015910.part1.rar 34 MB · 0 downloads

CAZ-Crimson_Sky_Cadets_v.0.18-20240526-015910.part2.rar 31.38 MB · 0 downloads

Here is a longer track where all the above mentioned bugs appear. Please let me know if I should do another one.

 

 

Thank you! This will help.

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Nicholas Dackard

 

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Heatblur Simulations

 

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MavOne96

MavOne96

Posted
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Posted

I have rewatched the track and it got corrupted at least for me. Sometimes it shows that I lose the WSO canopy but that didn't really happen. At least it is clear that no matter how long I have been waiting connected to the boom I have never received the "transfer complete" message.

  • 3 weeks later...
Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted
On 5/26/2024 at 4:24 AM, MavOne96 said:

no matter how long I have been waiting connected to the boom I have never received the "transfer complete" message (even with all tanks full) but I only received it when pressing Air Refuel Release Button (even when the transfer was not fully done)

People usually underestimates how long it takes to actually top off the ext tanks specifically. The refuel rate gets quite slow as the number of tanks that still need fuel reduces more and more. With just perhaps one or two ext tanks left, it is more in the ballpark of ~1000-1500 lbs/min and not the original 3900 lbs/min anymore since only so much fuel can fit through the pipe layout.

Most tracks I have seen from people claiming that AAR never finishes actually never refueled completely yet. Each time I force them to fly just ~2 minutes longer, the tanker actually says "transfer completed" when the tanks actually finished.

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MavOne96

MavOne96

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 6/13/2024 at 3:50 PM, Zabuzard said:

People usually underestimates how long it takes to actually top off the ext tanks specifically. The refuel rate gets quite slow as the number of tanks that still need fuel reduces more and more. With just perhaps one or two ext tanks left, it is more in the ballpark of ~1000-1500 lbs/min and not the original 3900 lbs/min anymore since only so much fuel can fit through the pipe layout.

Most tracks I have seen from people claiming that AAR never finishes actually never refueled completely yet. Each time I force them to fly just ~2 minutes longer, the tanker actually says "transfer completed" when the tanks actually finished.

I have redone the refueling test today as follows: hot start > equip 3 empty tanks > fly to the tanker > refuel until 3 green FULL lights and internal fuel gauge was still at ~12000 LBS > wait on the clock more than 5min connected to the boom > still no 'Transfer Complete' message.

I can provide a track if needed.

Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted
I have redone the refueling test today as follows: hot start > equip 3 empty tanks > fly to the tanker > refuel until 3 green FULL lights and internal fuel gauge was still at ~12000 LBS > wait on the clock more than 5min connected to the boom > still no 'Transfer Complete' message.
I can provide a track if needed.
Yes, please provide a track. It works in all tests I conducted. Cheers
gulredrel

gulredrel

Posted
Posted

I also had several instances when tanker disconnects but never said transfer complete. Got it only once when cycling the AAR door and a short last disconnect.

Also never saw the ext tanks full lights during AAR. Will create simple mission and try again.

AI is also doing weird things.

Pair of AI F-4Es joining with the tanker close...

Screen_240609_183016.jpg?rlkey=71hlvmwqa

Eventually, pilots of one plane ejected and the second was connected to the tanker more than 15 minutes.

Screen_240616_211804.png?rlkey=gkx793b2i

I guess I better should create a separate report and try to recreat this in a simple mission for a better trackfile.

  • Like 2
Czar66

Czar66

Posted
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, gulredrel said:

AI is also doing weird things.

 

Screen_240609_183016.jpg?rlkey=71hlvmwqa

Eventually, pilots of one plane ejected and the second was connected to the tanker more than 15 minutes.

AI getting into each other is a DCS bug. I've observed it with Mirages, Tomcats etc... for more than 1 year now.

AI stuck into refueling without disconnecting (maybe endless) is also a DCS bug and a new one. I've seen it two days ago an AI Viper with that issue. I've kept watching for quite a while, maybe 2x the time it takes the viper to refuel from 2000lb to full tanks (the AI had no external tanks attached anymore) I had to do an emergency landing with 200lb of fuel on touchdown. Definitely can break missions.

Edited by Czar66
  • Like 2
Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted
On 6/16/2024 at 2:08 AM, MavOne96 said:

Sure. Here it is. Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.

Does the track work on your end? I only see a AI Su-33 circle around. No player spawn or anything.

gulredrel

gulredrel

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, gulredrel said:

Also never saw the ext tanks full lights during AAR. Will create simple mission and try again.

Update on this. Need to be really patient. That last part of filling externals is really slow. Saw the lights on two occasions now. Everything fine in this regard.

Also that disconnect without disengage light and re-connect of the tanker without saying that transfer starts got me several times... Holding position is really hard drogue and basket in the F-14 is sooo much easier.

Concerning the AI being on top of each other. Didn't saw this happen today and have no idea how to reproduce to create a track.

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MavOne96

MavOne96

Posted
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Posted
10 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

Does the track work on your end? I only see a AI Su-33 circle around. No player spawn or anything.

I can confirm that I have rewatched the track and for me it works fine. The F4E on the blue side spawns in several seconds.

New_Sun_Training_Mission_Beta_V.1.8-20240616-014325.trk

7 hours ago, gulredrel said:

Update on this. Need to be really patient. That last part of filling externals is really slow. Saw the lights on two occasions now. Everything fine in this regard.

Also that disconnect without disengage light and re-connect of the tanker without saying that transfer starts got me several times... Holding position is really hard drogue and basket in the F-14 is sooo much easier.

Concerning the AI being on top of each other. Didn't saw this happen today and have no idea how to reproduce to create a track.

I have waited being full of fuel connected to the boom almost as long as the time it takes for a complete refill and still didn't get the Transfer Complete confirmation.

Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted
I have waited being full of fuel connected to the boom almost as long as the time it takes for a complete refill and still didn't get the Transfer Complete confirmation.
Then the mission likely requires some scripts or plugins to work properly which I don't have.
If possible, try to reproduce it on a mission with just you and the tanker. You spawning directly behind the tanker, Singleplayer.
That would be ideal conditions for a track.
Thanks
MavOne96

MavOne96

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

Then the mission likely requires some scripts or plugins to work properly which I don't have.
If possible, try to reproduce it on a mission with just you and the tanker. You spawning directly behind the tanker, Singleplayer.
That would be ideal conditions for a track.
Thanks

Here is a simpler track in Single player. I have waited 12min connected to the boom (more than 5min full) and still no Transfer complete message. Also after disconnecting the system didn't lock itself (no need for system reset to reconnect). 

F4E Aerial Refuel.trk

Edited by MavOne96
gulredrel

gulredrel

Posted
Posted

For me it finally worked... I will not show you the debriefing refuel history "refuel - refuel stop" amount of messages until this picture was made 🙈🙊 Jester also totally freaked out telling me directions to the tanker after refueling was completed (known issue, as far as I understand). Had to silence Jester until approach.

Screen_240617_142109_disconnect.jpg?rlke

MavOne96

MavOne96

Posted
  • Author
Posted
9 minutes ago, gulredrel said:

For me it finally worked... I will not show you the debriefing refuel history "refuel - refuel stop" amount of messages until this picture was made 🙈🙊 Jester also totally freaked out telling me directions to the tanker after refueling was completed (known issue, as far as I understand). Had to silence Jester until approach.

Screen_240617_142109_disconnect.jpg?rlke

Good for you! But the bug I am refering to has nothing to do with external tanks being refueled or not. External tanks work correctly. The issue is that after full refuel the tanker doesn't end the transfer and no Transfer complete message is shown.

gulredrel

gulredrel

Posted
Posted

As seen in the screenshot, I got the transfer complete message. externals were full, was disconnected and down to 11000lbs internal. Topped of internal fuel and got the message. Can't say, If it will work when you stay connected the whole time. I'm not that good in keeping the right spot for that amount of time needed. The tanker lights being a bit dim doesn't help either. Would be nice to have such an overlay like the carrier landing lights meatball.

Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, gulredrel said:

Jester also totally freaked out telling me directions to the tanker after refueling was completed (known issue, as far as I understand)

Yeah, known one. It would be super helpful to get that nailed down in a working short SP track, cause I am still kinda clueless why it happens. Cheers

Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, MavOne96 said:

Here is a simpler track in Single player. I have waited 12min connected to the boom (more than 5min full) and still no Transfer complete message. Also after disconnecting the system didn't lock itself (no need for system reset to reconnect). 

F4E Aerial Refuel.trk 6.35 MB · 1 download

 

Thanks for the track, nice flying btw! 🙂

I can confirm that in this particular track the tanker did not disconnect the plane despite being full. The aircraft is full after 7min (20:32 in the track). The FULL lights also illuminated properly.

J69QQb7.png

 

We will investigate what happened here. As reported by others, the tanker does disconnect in other cases. So this is an odd one.

It could have been the altitude and similar. Since DCS measures fuel capacity in kg, ignoring the fact that fuel density plays a role for capacity as well. So possibly the aircraft didnt reach the weight the tanker was looking for. Will check, thanks

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gulredrel

gulredrel

Posted
Posted (edited)

Jester not freaking out this time, but getting transfer complete message from tanker well below full internal reached. Airstart with ext. empty tanks and only about 5200lbs internal fuel.

For jester freaking out I only have a 15MB track. I guess, this would not be helpful.

edit: Please don't comment my bad flying keeping formation 🤣

20240619_F-4E_AAR.trk

Edited by gulredrel
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Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
  • Solution
Posted

Found and fixed the issue 👍

The fuel capacity defined for the external tanks was "too accurate", resulting in it being just so slightly above what the tank could fit in-game in real conditions, including density simulation.
So the external tanks could just slightly never reach the values the tanker was looking for. Tweaked the numbers and now it works 🙂

uvrFvJ8.jpeg

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Zabuzard

Zabuzard

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, gulredrel said:

Jester not freaking out this time, but getting transfer complete message from tanker well below full internal reached. Airstart with ext. empty tanks and only about 5200lbs internal fuel.

You are running into the DCS bug where the tanker just sticks the boom in despite being DISCONNECTED due to bad maneuvering. The tanker currently does not respect that he isnt allowed to stick it in before you cycled the door to reset the system. After plugging in, he immediately realizes that he wasnt allowed to connect, disconnects within one frame and incorrectly calls "transfer complete".

ED is on it.

In the meantime, cycle your AAR door and do the coms again to restart the tanking procedure.

Edited by Zabuzard
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