Mig-29S attacks 2 targets simultaneously?

[Vekkinho]

^^^^^^

That's about it! I knew there must be something with Alamo A, Alamo B payload combo but as YuAF had no or very small number (these may be dummies) of Alamo B missiles it was never used in practice!

 

However I have no clue or info that Yugoslav MiGs were -29B and that radar was downgraded as the export version!

[GGTharos]

Again, the whole independent tracking thing doesn't appear to be a clean-cut thing. In short, it seems possible but on the other hand it may also be quite tedious to use. There's just no examples of how you could make use of this.

[Kuky]

^^^

What if scenario is MiG-29 is being guided by GCI and gets silent aproach to two aircraft... it locks one in EOS manual mode, then locks second with radar and fires both IR and SARH missile?

 

Anyway, this is just a speculation on my part... possibly this would not work so no big deal there. What I am concerned about is that in LockOn MiG-29A and MiG-29S version have same radar performance, where as it clearly states that MiG-29S has a better radar that CAN track and engage simultaniously 2 targets with R-77 missiles.

[GGTharos]

The MiG-29S might even be somewhat reasonably accurate, considering it's missing all the radar problems all the other aircraft are missing. The MiG-29A should just be absolutely horrid by comparison - false targets all over the place, a real need to fly above a certain altitude but below your target's for BVR engagements, etc etc.

 

As for two target - no, it doesn't work like this Kuky. Or more to the point, it doesn't seem to. You can track two targets potentially but the CGI lines up ALL your sensors.

 

Further it's not unlike LOMAC in that you'd have to switch sensors -somehow- (and note AFAIK I can't tell if there's a mechanism provided for this in the MiG that lets you do so in a meaningful manner), and then you'd have to potentially fiddle around switching weapons.

 

At this point you're looking at attacking a really close in target with your heater (because you won't launch a radar missile with EOS) and a BVR target or a close target with the radar. It's a very unlikely scenario, and it's not like this stuff works like TWS or any other modern concept of information fusion/weapon management.

 

It might seem like a simple thing but in reality it really isn't.

[Kuky]

Another one I found:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/ruaf-ap1.htm

 

Specifically:

FULCRUM A, MiG-29B, version 1, product 9-12

Land-based single-seat version. The first 110 made had rear fuselage fins, but they were removed in the next series and replaced by enlarged rudders and chaff/flare dispensers extending from vertical stabilizers to above the wings. The final series featured new nose wheel and pitot tube projection.

Internal fuel capacity 3,200 kg, auxiliary fuselage tank volume 1,184 kg. About 40 % of the aircraft have been modified to use two 1,130-kilo auxiliary wing tanks.

All aircraft have hydro-mechanic control system and covered air intakes. The power plants are two RD-33 engines, which provide the thrust of 8,300 kp with afterburner. The maximum take-off weight is about 16,800 kg. The aircraft has a zero/zero ejection seat K-36DM/2-06.

The SUV (OEPrNK-29E2) weapon system features N-109 pulse-doppler radar S-29 TOPAZ or its export version N-019E Rubin; NATO 'SLOT BACK'. The newer N-019/3A ZHUK RLPK-29E coherent multi-mode radar is integrated to the aircraft for later installations. The KOLS laser - IR rangefinder/homing head and the helmet sight complement the fire control system. The three-axis IR rangefinder is mounted inside a transparent dome on top of the nose forward of the cockpit and it comprises the directional laser rangefinder.

The RLPK-29 radar system includes S-29 lookdown - shootdown radar and Ts100.02-02 digital processor. Detection range to fighter targets is approximately 70 km in encounter situations and about 35 km in pursuit. The detection range to bomber targets is estimated to be double that to fighters. The radar is able to track 10 targets simultaneously and to engage one defined as the most dangerous by the processor. The scan capability covers ± 67 degrees in azimuth and +60/-38 degrees in elevation.

 

The MiG-29S is equipped with the N-019M TOPAZ radar with higher jamming resistance and bigger processor facilitating lock-on to two targets with the AA-12 missiles.

 

Also:

FULCRUM A, MiG-29S, version 5, product 9-12S

Small 76-liter addition to internal fuel capacity. Maximum fuel capacity with auxiliary tanks 8,196 liters. Maximum take-off weight 19,700 kg.

Reported maximum operation range 2,862 km.

Improved N-019M SLOT BACK radar facilitating simultaneous tracking of ten targets and engagement of two targets with the AVV-AE R-77 ADDER missile.

 

Then:

FULCRUM C, MiG-29S, version 8/9

Model equipped with the NO-019M radar. The internal fuel capacity has been increased by 240 liters and external load by 4,000 kg. Less than 50 aircraft have been manufactured for the Russian Air Force.

 

So seems there are 2 versions on MiG-29S, one with N019M other with NO-019M radar... and I wonder why you keep saying MiG-29S cannot engage 2 targets where pretty much everywhere I see it says it can? :noexpression:

Edited May 9, 2009 by Kuky

[GGTharos]

Yes, a number of MiG-29S have the Topaz radar. Not certain it was all of them.

[Vekkinho]

Trouble is it's hard to precisely determine a timeframe of FC1.12 because some of the MiG-29 planes featured in the game represent an early production models and some of them are modernized export versions.

 

let's take this as an example, if you look at the default skins of a MiG-29A you'll notice there's 968th IAP Altenburg skin (3rd in the drop down list) and a #999 demonstrator. Well these two differ a lot in both internal systems and fuselage.

 

968th IAP were first production Fulcrums that had no chaff flare dispensers, had no mud guard on the nose wheel, rudder control surface was smaller and had ventral fins which were removed later on all later production 9-12, have a pic:

 

(Too bad there's no skin/3D model trigger here, like with Su-27 test pilots), however #999 demonstrator (for Malaysia) is in fact 9-12S as it also has ECM.

 

Now here's a pic of YuAF #101 during 1988 airshow in Zagreb, first public appearance of new fighters, pilot was Hajrudin Hodzic:

 

IIRC this specific airframe was overhauled in 2007 and today still serves with Serbian AF!

 

 

Not all 9-13 are 9-13S but I know the ones with Damgarten skin were (IRL).

 

So I guess MiG types of LOFC are pretty much in general missing some RL accuracy!

Edited May 9, 2009 by Vekkinho

[GGTharos]

Gee, like every other flyable in LOFC? ;)

[Vekkinho]

Gee, like every other flyable in LOFC? ;)

 

You're right, if ED missed data on Russian birds I can only imagine assumption they made on US ones!

 

What I'd like to see is this error being ironed out in DCS modules.

[GGTharos]

DCS, as you know, is a completely different animal.

[Wilde]

Yes, a number of MiG-29S have the Topaz radar. Not certain it was all of them.

 

What are you trying to imply here?

[Vekkinho]

^^^^

The fact that 9-13 airframes had Rubin and 9-13S had Topaz!

[Alfa]

Another one I found:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/ruaf-ap1.htm

 

Specifically:

 

 

Also:

 

 

Then:

 

 

So seems there are 2 versions on MiG-29S, one with N019M other with NO-019M radar... and I wonder why you keep saying MiG-29S cannot engage 2 targets where pretty much everywhere I see it says it can? :noexpression:

 

Kuky no one says that the MiG-29S(9-13S) cannot engage two targets - what we are saying is that the MiG-29(9-12 and 9-13) cannot.

 

Anyway, the first of your quotes is so full of errors that its not really worth using as reference - designations are flying all over the place and are for the most part wrong.

 

The weapons control system(WCS) for the 9-12 and 9-13 is called SUV-29 and includes the N019 "Rubin" radar. This is sometimes refered to as "RLPK-29", which is an abbreviation that IIRC translates to something like "Radio Location and Aiming Complex - 29", which in turn simply means....radar for the MiG-29 :) . This is what is simulated in Lock-on.

 

The WCS of the 9-13S is called SUV-29S(surprise) and involves the N019M "Topaz" radar. It has a modified SNP mode that can prioritise two targets, which can be engaged in succession with R-77 missiles directly from SNP. In order to cope with the increased processing required for this, the radar was upgraded with a more powerful main processor(possibly "borrowed" from the more advanced N010 "Zhuk")

 

It is true that there is also a more "obscure" 9-12S with the Topaz radar - i.e. the "non-fatback" 9-12 airframe. IIRC this is the version called MiG-29SD by MIG, which was exported to Malaysia where it entered service as the "MiG-29N". This variant also has a "bolt-on" IFR probe, but no ECM(Vekkinho).

 

However, there is no such thing as "S-29", "NO-019M", "N-109" or "N-019/3A ZHUK" :).

 

"Zhuk" has *nothing* to do with the N019 - it is a name Phasatron-NIIR allocated for an entirely new advanced radar design similar to the F-18's APG-65. The first set was the N010 "Zhuk", which was designed for the MiG-29M(9-15) and MiG-29K(9-31) multirole fighters. It had a planar slotted array antenna and a more powerful processor - it could track 10 targets in TWS(like the N019), "stack" up to 4 for engagement and simultaneously engage 2 with the R-77, which it(unlike the N019) was tailored to use. It also had air-to-surface modes supporting radar guided anti-ship missiles(such as the X-31A). This radar was also made in a version for the Su-27(-33 etc) called "Zhuk-27", which differed from the MiG-29 version merely by having a larger antenna(960 mm diameter) - i.e. NIIR's alternative to NIIPs N011.

 

Later NIIR made upgraded versions of these retaining the planar slotted array antennas- namely the Zhuk-M currently offered with the Indian MiG-29K/KUB(9-41/9-47) and MiG-29SMT2 upgrade, while the Zhuk-MS with a larger antenna was installed in the Su-27KUB prototype. These also come in versions with fixed passive phased array antannas; Zhuk-MF and Zhuk-MFS respectively. Finally there is the latest incarnation called Zhuk-A which is an active phased array(AESA) currently installed in the MiG-35 prototype.

 

Now to return to the topic (:D) - I would agree that the MiG-29S in the sim is not correctly depicted. Either it should:

 

a)...be "downgraded" to the 9-13 version - i.e. same airframe and retaining the internal Gardeniya jammer, but have the R-77 removed from its arsenal or...

 

b). ..be modified to allow launch of the R-77 directly from SNP(i.e. without automatically switching to STT) and for a second target to be "bugged" and engaged while continiuing to guide the first launched missile.

 

But I am sure you can see which of the two options is the easiest to implement :D - not least since there AFAIK isn't much in the way of documentation about exactly how the SNP mode of the N019M works and how it is displayed on HUD/HDD.

[Alfa]

^^^^

The fact that 9-13 airframes had Rubin and 9-13S had Topaz!

 

Yes thats right :) .

 

But apparently only the 9-13S is called "MiG-29S", while as far as I can tell the 9-13 is refered to simply as "MiG-29" just like the 9-12.