Fratricide

[Migparts]

In a merged dogfight, we were my wing-man and I against two enemy F-4Es, and after locking on to an enemy F-4E, I launched a AIM-7M on to him, but the missile struck and destroyed my wing-man instead. My wing-man’s  F-4E and the two enemy F-4Es were all flying in the same patch of sky near to each other. 
 

I would like to know what I have done wrong in terms of bad IFF practices. 
 

Appreciate all insights. 

[Grundar]

In all probability you were most likely locked onto your wingman at the start.  That said your wingman could of been chasing the enemy target you had locked and flew into the path of the Sparrow by accident - stranger things have happened in DCS.  The pilot can change the IFF transponder but only the WSO has control of the interrogator (which is to identify other aircraft).  You can ask Jester to identify a target via the IFF prompt under the Jester wheel, but that can be time consuming in a rapidly escalating situation like a dogfight.  But if in doubt, for IFF, hold the shot off - especially with identical airframes involved until you have confirmation.  This means you will have to start thinking about repositioning yourself.

Sometimes if you are also acquiring as the Pilot in CAGE mode with CAA, it will lock a target in the boresight, if there are multiples it may not select the one you wish.

[Zabuzard]

If someone is flying through your radar lock at a similar range, the lock can easily jump over. Dont shoot missiles when theres friendlies close to the bad guys.

Edited June 8, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Kalasnkova74]

2 hours ago, Migparts said:

In a merged dogfight, we were my wing-man and I against two enemy F-4Es, and after locking on to an enemy F-4E, I launched a AIM-7M on to him, but the missile struck and destroyed my wing-man instead. My wing-man’s  F-4E and the two enemy F-4Es were all flying in the same patch of sky near to each other. 
 

I would like to know what I have done wrong in terms of bad IFF practices. 
 

Appreciate all insights. 

Explained simply, the AIM-7 will track on the strongest return. That strongest return may be a friendly that’s flown into the path of your radar. 

If you’re engaging mixed formations of aircraft , you cannot safely use the Sparrow. This is why during Operation Bolo, Sparrows were cancelled after the second flight of F-4s entered North Vietnamese airspace. 

[EnzoF98]

3 minutes ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

This is why during Operation Bolo, Sparrows were cancelled after the second flight of F-4s entered North Vietnamese airspace. 

That's not quite true. It was no longer a free-fire zone after the first wave, pilots needed visual ID before firing. All 3 kills by Rambler flight (the last group in) were with Sparrows.

[r4y30n]

Explained simply, the AIM-7 will track on the strongest return. That strongest return may be a friendly that’s flown into the path of your radar. 

If you’re engaging mixed formations of aircraft , you cannot safely use the Sparrow. This is why during Operation Bolo, Sparrows were cancelled after the second flight of F-4s entered North Vietnamese airspace. 

I’m not sure where people are getting the idea that friendly fire only happens with SARH weapons. A sidewinder is just as likely to track a friendly that’s flown across your LOS to a bandit and they can also be slewed to bad radar locks. The solution isn’t to change weapons in a crowded situation like that, it’s to hold fire until you’re confident in your firing solution.

[Oldcrow Jr. 62]

IF I recall correctly, there were a number of incidents where it was believed that an F-4E was thought to have been shot down by an friendly F-4E. The Phantom lost had the call sign of Trigger 4. A full blown investigation years after the war, finally determined that a Mig-21 down Trigger 4. Both crew survived, and became POW's. Here is the link to that PDF and the results of the downing of Trigger 4. https://media.defense.gov/2009/Aug/14/2001330300/-1/-1/0/AFD-090814-037.pdf

I do believe however, that it is possible for it to happen, even with more modern Active and SARH missiles. In come cases, if the radar lock is broken, the missile activates it's own seeker, and locks onto a target. I know the Phoenix will do that. So think about it, if you lock a known enemy target, launch, and some how the lock is lost or disrupted, either by ECCM, ECM, maneuvering or even a friendly close by the target when the seek goes active in the terminal phase, it is possible. For SARH, two reflected signals could confuse the seeker as mentioned above.

Here is a link listing the known losses of F-4's over Vietnam during the war. Not sure if it's complete or not. But interesting nonetheless.

https://combatace.com/forums/topic/90897-usaf-f-4-phantom-vietnam-losses/

 

Edited June 8, 2024 by Oldcrow Jr. 62

[GavinRay]

Thanks Oldcrow for the combatace link. 

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, r4y30n said:

I’m not sure where people are getting the idea that friendly fire only happens with SARH weapons. A sidewinder is just as likely to track a friendly that’s flown across your LOS to a bandit and they can also be slewed to bad radar locks.

In fact, a heater, particularly an early model, is more likely to go after a Phantom's big, flaming pair of motors rather than a MiG somewhere out in front. Even if the radar lock is good, if the seeker happens to catch sight of something else that's hot, it might go after that instead. It might be a flare, it might be an unlucky wingmate. Later models with actual ECCM would be less susceptible to this, but not immune.

Edited June 9, 2024 by Dragon1-1