Questions on Radios in KA-50

[Vosene]

I'm slightly confused by the some of the radio details given in the pilots manual so hopefully someone can clarify things.

 

Page 1-5 of the English manual states that the KA-50 has 2x R-800L1 and 1x R-868 VHF transceiver but page 2-97 of the manual only refers to the R-800 in the singular:

 

"The R-800L1 is a VHF-2 command radio system. The radio system is turned on using the VHF-2 (“УКВ-2”) switch on the right panel. This radio can be used to communicate with other airborne units and provide reception of ADF signals."

 

Is the second R-800 mentioned on page 1-5 dedicated to the datalink(as might be referred to on page 7-6 of the manual where it mentions the datalink radio power switch but not the type of radio) or is the mention of a second R-800 radio a typo?

 

Secondly, the DCS website overview of Black Shark refers to the R-800 as UHF while the manual only mentions VHF but page 8-2 of the manual refers to the R-800 frequency range as 100-149 MHz and 200-400 MHz, so I believe the R-800 radio is capable of both transmitting in both UHF and VHF and both sources are correct? Link to source: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?end_pos=950#p1

 

Page 1-5 of the manual also refers to "an automatic data transmission system that updates ground controllers of the helicopter‟s position and performance" but I can't find any other information in the manual. Can anyone provide details on if this is modelled and what information is transmitted?

 

Finally I can't find any mention of the R-868 VHF radio listed on Page 1-5 anywhere else in the manual. I can however find numerous references to the R-828. Can anyone confirm if the R-868 mentioned on page 1-5 is a typo and it should instead refer to the R-828?

Edited May 6, 2009 by Vosene

[Frederf]

There are three VHF radios in the Ka-50

VHF-1 R-828

VHF-2 (Primary) R-800

VHF-2 (Emergency) R-800

 

The manual is poorly worded calling the "R-800L1 is a VHF-2 command radio system" because there's no such type of radio called VHF-2. VHF-2 is just a label so you can tell it apart from VHF-1.

 

It's news to me that the secondary (emergency) R-800 radio handles datalink data. I thought the primary R-800 handled that. It's probably correct though.

 

The R-800 should be VHF but technically the minimum frequency in the UHF range is down at 300MHz. There's also the possibility that the datalink is happening at UHF frequencies but they only advertise the VHF frequencies where voice traffic happens. A frequency range of 100-400Mhz clearly classifies the radio as VHF only. I'm guessing it's a goof on the website.

 

As for the automatic data transmission system that updates ground controllers. That's got to be a sort of air-to-ground datalink just like our air-to-air datalink. It might technically be modeled simply because when you ask for a vector to home base over the radio the controllers magically know where you are to give you the proper vector. Other than that the sim has no reference to this A-G datalink.

 

It looks like R-828 is correct and R-868 is a typo. There's a long "errors in the manual thread" that probably has already caught this.

[Vosene]

Thanks for the response Frederf.

 

Do you have a source for the information about the primary and emergency R-800? I don't see any way to switch to the Emergency R-800 or any mention of it in the manual apart from the reference to 2x R-800 on page 1-5. Is switching handled automatically or is it just not modelled in BS?

 

I was hypothosizing about the 2nd R-800 being used for the datalink. If it is labelled as emergency then it probably doesn't handle the datalink under normal operation.

 

As you say the UHF range starts at 300MHz. As the radio goes up to 400MHz I think this technically makes it VHF & UHF.

 

I will put a post in the "errors in the manual thread" about the R-868 typo.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Vosene

[JG14_Smil]

emergency switch is left of the APU, "Guard" in english cockpit. Monitors 121.5 and is receive only.

[Frederf]

It's modeled, like JG14 says it's a simple switch to swap to the backup VHF-2. For some reason it's receive-only which doesn't make too much sense to me but that's the way it is.

 

Page 2-97 of the manual references the guard frequency switch and 5-19 mentions the switch again in a combat procedure. I'm beginning to question if the second VHF radio is dedicated to emergency use or if both VHF radios are identical backups (the backup being enacted if the first has a fault) and the guard frequency doesn't change which radio is being used.

[Vosene]

Moving the switch to the guard/emergency position does not appear to change to a different radio. It simply changes the frequency of the R-800 to the guard channel (121.5 MHz). You can't transmit when in this mode and you can't receive on the normal frequency (127.5 MHz by default) showing that it isn't using two radios at the same time. I have attached a track that demonstrates this.

 

Some military aircraft have a radio setup that allows you to monitor the guard channel at the same time as transmitting/receiving on a different frequency but the Ka-50, at least as modelled in BS, does not allow you to do this.

 

It therefore still leaves the question, is there a 2nd R-800 on the Ka-50 as stated on page 1-5 of the manual and if so what is it used for? I believe there are 3 possible options:

 

1. It is a typo and there is only 1x R-800

2. It provides datalink functionality (related to jam resistant VHF-TLK switch maybe?)

3. It is a backup radio in the event of failure of the first R-800.

 

Also does anyone know what the data link SA-TLF switch does on the Radio and Data Link Power Control Panel (5th switch on the right from the Intercom power on switch). Page 2-77 simply refers to the name SA-TLF switch but there is nothing else in the manual about it.

R-800 Radio Test (Guard).trk

[Frederf]

There's no way to visually tell if the guard switch changes which radio is in use. I don't see how a track can "prove" anything like that.

 

I'm really guessing the #3 option is correct.

 

I half-remember the SA-TLF being a toggle between two modes of radio traffic. I do know it's not modeled in the game so the switch does nothing but in real life it's like the difference between pulse dial and touch-tone.

[Vosene]

There's no way to visually tell if the guard switch changes which radio is in use. I don't see how a track can "prove" anything like that.

 

 

Slight misunderstanding here Frederf.

 

I wasn't providing the track as proof that the radio in use was not switching, merely to show that it was not possible to listen to two frequencies at the same time, in this case guard and the selected frequency.

 

This makes me think the R-800 is switching channels rather than a different R-800 being selected when the guard switch is in the up position. Otherwise why not offer to option to monitor the guard frequency at the same time as receiveing/transmiting on the tuned frequency (127.5 MHz)? This view is my personal opinion only and as you say is not proved by the track.

 

Interestingly while trying to find more information on the R-800L1, I found a pdf script on the DCS web-site used for the training missions that says the Ka-50 only has 2 VHF transceivers:

 

Radio equipment consists of two VHF radio transceivers (the R-800L1 and the R-828), the PU-9 intercom device, a P-503B voice recorder, the "Almaz" UP-48 automated voice warning system, an IFF response system, an ARK-22 radio compass, and an A-036A radar altimeter.

Source: http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=23155&d=1230668637

 

I have watched Training Mission 1 again and Wags does indeed state that the Ka-50 has two VHF radio transceivers as per the quote above.

 

I will continue trying to find more information about this.

 

Also thanks for the information on the SA-TLF switch.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Vosene

[Frederf]

I see what you mean there. Monitoring two frequencies would be evidence that there are two distinct transceivers operating in unison (although I think there are single transceivers capable of two simultaneous frequencies). Certainly it's agreed that the Ka-50 only deals with one frequency at a time, at least regarding the VHF-2 system.

 

However I wouldn't take the guard's limited ability as an argument that there's only one radio. It seems that the guard frequency mode is intentionally limited for use in radio-stealth critical wartime scenarios. Preventing transmission is likely an intended benefit.

 

As for "Two VHF radios" I don't know if the R828 is VHF or UHF. I thought the R800 was VHF and the R828 was UHF. The DCS website lists both the R800 and the R828 as both UHF so I don't know until I get my nose back in the manual ><. I don't know if I trust any source of information now. The R800 might be a single radio with a "backup module" or something like that that makes classifying it as 1 or 2 individual radios up to some interpretation. I'll have a look through the lua files to see if I can see mention of this backup R800.

 

Also don't go quoting me as fact on that SA-TLF switch, just my faint memory of what I swore that's what that switch does.