Problems with AAR

[Sniper29]

Good afternoon, and I apologize in advance if what I'm saying is nonsense since it could always be my problem, but the fact is that after the update, I'm having a hard time, bordering on the impossible, with something that I already had more than controlled, which is refueling. aerial, the new sensations that I feel now are, for example, the lack of response of the engine when making a correction once engaged, it takes a very long time (compared to before the update) to respond, with the consequent loss of position and disengagement, as well as lack retention, that is, when I get it to move forward, it takes a long time to "stop" and maintain, so again it goes out of position and disengages, as I say, before the update it had no problem, towards a full three-tank refueling , suffering one or two maximum and brief disconnections, now it is an odyssey to try to refuel and maintain.
As I say, it could perfectly be my thing, but it's curious that before the update I didn't have these problems. Has this happened to anyone else?..... Thank you and as I say, sorry in advance if what I've stated is nonsense.

greetings

[MAXsenna]

@Sniper29 Correct! They did adjust the spool up times for the engines after feedback from the users to make it more realistic. So it's not a bug. Well done noticing that, as myself can't "feel" any difference.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, Sniper29 said:

Good afternoon, and I apologize in advance if what I'm saying is nonsense since it could always be my problem, but the fact is that after the update, I'm having a hard time, bordering on the impossible, with something that I already had more than controlled, which is refueling. aerial, the new sensations that I feel now are, for example, the lack of response of the engine when making a correction once engaged, it takes a very long time (compared to before the update) to respond, with the consequent loss of position and disengagement, as well as lack retention, that is, when I get it to move forward, it takes a long time to "stop" and maintain, so again it goes out of position and disengages, as I say, before the update it had no problem, towards a full three-tank refueling , suffering one or two maximum and brief disconnections, now it is an odyssey to try to refuel and maintain.
As I say, it could perfectly be my thing, but it's curious that before the update I didn't have these problems. Has this happened to anyone else?..... Thank you and as I say, sorry in advance if what I've stated is nonsense.

greetings

I don’t think it’s nonsense. But the change is more realistic, and so is learning how to do it “correctly”.

 

FWIW, I find AAR much easier now with the slower spool time. Lacking the “ON/OFF” nature of the incorrect quick-spool setting, it’s easier for me to control fore-aft alignment 

[Sniper29]

Thanks for the answers and understanding, but if, as you say, the behavior is now more "realistic", I don't understand how in conflicts the tanker planes could tow hooked to the damaged F4 booms for hours, if I can't even stay there for more than 30 seconds hooked and not stable at all. My most sincere recognition to all those who say that now they find it easier, that particularly frustrates me more, so aerial refueling will be one of the things that I will no longer do with the f4, I prefer to have fun simulating with it than to enter a spiral of frustration.

[MAXsenna]

Thanks for the answers and understanding, but if, as you say, the behavior is now more "realistic", I don't understand how in conflicts the tanker planes could tow hooked to the damaged F4 booms for hours, if I can't even stay there for more than 30 seconds hooked and not stable at all. My most sincere recognition to all those who say that now they find it easier, that particularly frustrates me more, so aerial refueling will be one of the things that I will no longer do with the f4, I prefer to have fun simulating with it than to enter a spiral of frustration.

Well, I feel for you, so that's sad. Personally I find the Phantom one of the easiest ones to do AAR in. I do have a prefect sight picture. I don't look at the lights at all. I use the mirror to watch the boom so I know I'm perfectly aligned, and when plugged I just keep the canopy bow so I can see a small part of the yellow stripe aligned with the boom. The "size" outboard tanker engines will tell me which way I'm drifting, but I have to stay ahead. Jester also helps me, even if all his call outs are to late. I know I'm good if I have corrected before he says something.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Massun92]

2 hours ago, Sniper29 said:

Thanks for the answers and understanding, but if, as you say, the behavior is now more "realistic", I don't understand how in conflicts the tanker planes could tow hooked to the damaged F4 booms for hours, if I can't even stay there for more than 30 seconds hooked and not stable at all. My most sincere recognition to all those who say that now they find it easier, that particularly frustrates me more, so aerial refueling will be one of the things that I will no longer do with the f4, I prefer to have fun simulating with it than to enter a spiral of frustration.

maybe that is the problem... you do not need to quit, just practice more. I always find funny that people try to master some really complex things like AAR in a couple of hours, when to master it, the real pilots take a LOT of flying hours.  

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

We will likely all have different techniques for refuelling, but I find Jester to be a huge help and I also do use the PDL lights.
As always though, the key is being smooth, making small/tiny corrections and above all - patience.

Just yesterday I made a mess of a dogfight with a MiG-21 so it took me ages to finally kill him, and almost all of my fuel. By the time I reached the tanker and hooked up I had less than 300 lbs of fuel remaining (yes that's not a typo). I connected and stayed connected until I had full fuel (12.000 lbs or whatever it is - I forgot the exact number), even through turns.

I also noticed the change in engine spool times but I found them having no effects at all in how I do my aerial refuelling. The Phantom still is - I find - the easiest aircraft to refuel in DCS, with the F-14 as close second.

[MichaelJWP15]

I find AAR very difficult in DCS, but equally close formation (2-3m separation) also tricky, forward/aft is ok but for pitch I usually end up in bad PIO. 

Strangely I have done some close formation flying in real life in Slingsby T67 prop planes and was quite good at it, much easier when you feel the forces/accelerations

[aaronwhite]

5 hours ago, MichaelJWP15 said:

I find AAR very difficult in DCS, but equally close formation (2-3m separation) also tricky, forward/aft is ok but for pitch I usually end up in bad PIO. 

Strangely I have done some close formation flying in real life in Slingsby T67 prop planes and was quite good at it, much easier when you feel the forces/accelerations

I think that's a huge part. In real life you've got a much easier time judging distances and everything, between being able to better see the depth in the real world and using your peripheral vision, paired with being able to actually feel the little changes in motion. Not to mention the feel of the joystick and throttles moving, and the difference in having a real stick hooked up to real cables/pullies/computers compared to having your "one size fits all" joystick at home that's usually got a really short stick shaft and is the same between everything from an I-16 to an AH-64.

Edited July 26, 2024 by aaronwhite

[Sniper29]

hace 23 horas, MAXsenna dijo:

Well, I feel for you, so that's sad. Personally I find the Phantom one of the easiest ones to do AAR in. I do have a prefect sight picture. I don't look at the lights at all. I use the mirror to watch the boom so I know I'm perfectly aligned, and when plugged I just keep the canopy bow so I can see a small part of the yellow stripe aligned with the boom. The "size" outboard tanker engines will tell me which way I'm drifting, but I have to stay ahead. Jester also helps me, even if all his call outs are to late. I know I'm good if I have corrected before he says something.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

If so, your method is just as valid as any other if it helps you refuel properly. I use the director's lights as my guide and so far it has always worked very well for me. Thanks for the reply.

[Sniper29]

hace 22 horas, Massun92 dijo:

maybe that is the problem... you do not need to quit, just practice more. I always find funny that people try to master some really complex things like AAR in a couple of hours, when to master it, the real pilots take a LOT of flying hours.  

What I find funny is this type of comment when you don't have all the data, let me explain:

In my case I have more than 5000 hours of virtual flight in DCS, more than 3000 in Falcon BMS (in all its variants since it was just Falcon 4) and aerial refueling is one of the things I like to do most in a flight simulator, if not the most, in fact, it is the first thing I start to master when I acquire a module with AAR capacity, because I really like doing missions that involve one or more aerial refuelings, since that does bring it closer to reality in the simulation, so I think that is not precisely the problem in my case. I am 52 years old and I am everything, but not an impatient child.

hace 6 horas, MichaelJWP15 dijo:

I find AAR very difficult in DCS, but equally close formation (2-3m separation) also tricky, forward/aft is ok but for pitch I usually end up in bad PIO. 

Strangely I have done some close formation flying in real life in Slingsby T67 prop planes and was quite good at it, much easier when you feel the forces/accelerations

The AAR is difficult in all aspects and in all situations, not only in DCS. My advice would be that before you want to connect, you spend some time flying in formation trying to maintain a more or less stable position. After that, once you have mastered this, refueling will only be based on acquiring the position to connect and then forgetting that you are hooked and flying in formation with the tanker.

[Sniper29]

hace 1 hora, aaronwhite dijo:

I think that's a huge part. In real life you've got a much easier time judging distances and everything, between being able to better see the depth in the real world and using your peripheral vision, paired with being able to actually feel the little changes in motion. Not to mention the feel of the joystick and throttles moving, and the difference in having a real stick hooked up to real cables/pullies/computers compared to having your "one size fits all" joystick at home that's usually got a really short stick shaft and is the same between everything from an I-16 to an AH-64.

 

Of course, the sensations cannot be simulated (they can be approximated in professional cockpit simulators, but they are always approximate, never real), the depth if you use VR helps, in my case I use a 2d panel (monitor) so for that matter it doesn't help much either, but I'm used to it, as I mentioned to my colleague, I spend many hours in front of the monitor and as they say: customs become laws.
And as you say, simulating the sensation of the lever and the friction in the throttle of the real plane is complicated in each one's home.

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by Sniper29

[Sniper29]

Thank you all for the responses and participation, but I wouldn't want this thread to become a debate, that is not the intention.

I'll start from scratch with the f4 and the aar, there is no other way.

[Massun92]

1 hour ago, Sniper29 said:

What I find funny is this type of comment when you don't have all the data, let me explain:

In my case I have more than 5000 hours of virtual flight in DCS, more than 3000 in Falcon BMS (in all its variants since it was just Falcon 4) and aerial refueling is one of the things I like to do most in a flight simulator, if not the most, in fact, it is the first thing I start to master when I acquire a module with AAR capacity, because I really like doing missions that involve one or more aerial refuelings, since that does bring it closer to reality in the simulation, so I think that is not precisely the problem in my case. I am 52 years old and I am everything, but not an impatient child.

The AAR is difficult in all aspects and in all situations, not only in DCS. My advice would be that before you want to connect, you spend some time flying in formation trying to maintain a more or less stable position. After that, once you have mastered this, refueling will only be based on acquiring the position to connect and then forgetting that you are hooked and flying in formation with the tanker.

Well, let me explain my point of view. I'm not good at flying any type of simulator, and I do NOT have a lot of hours flying the F4. I do NOT like AAR, and despite all of that, I'm able to do AAR in the F4. So... the airplane or the update are not the problem. 

[Sniper29]

I am pleased to report that the engine response when performing AAR is now consistent again (at least for me). The update is very good (and very necessary, as I say, at least for me).

Thank you all very much for your responses and comments.

Regards.