R27R/ER lose track if you enter memory Mode

[ShadowFrost]

5 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

 

SMEs can make mistakes, forget, or mis hear the question MiG-29 manual states R-27R/ER has up to 50 degree off boresight ability. Whether this is in semi active or radio correction, it is not stated. If you forced it to fire in that 5 degrees difference between off boresight ability and gimbal limit, maybe? 

That is a possibility. However, the scan pattern in STT is not 50 degrees wide in elevation. And for a traditional off boresight shot, both the missile and radar are looking in the same direction off azimuth. Whereas, with an aggressive manual loft, they can be split and this could lead to the rear antennas of the missile being outside of the cone of correction and unable to receive radio correction. 

That being said, we have gotten to a granularity that is probably not going to be relevant in DCS. 

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

The limit here is the 60 second turbogenerator. At about 50-70 km for 27R and 70-90 km for 27ER, you will hit this limit wether you loft or not 

true, 60 seconds limits the usability of this missile. I did get to manage shots of over 100km distance from target, and in one occasion 120km (the target contributed by moving toward, sadly did not check traveled distance). It's not uncommon for missile to have high energy at Mach 2.5-3 and then simply slump downward for not being able to guide anymore.

[Irisz]

8 hours ago, ShadowFrost said:

There have not been many theories created here, most of my arguments are in direct reference to discussions with SMEs and how we in DCS assume certain options which are not valid methods of operation. Similar to the LOAL controversy with both the R-27 and the Aim-7, they are absolutely not valid tactics due to how the missiles are harmonized with the radar but many in DCS belive them to be. 


And I agree with most of what you have said, we can very much use additions such as the R-77-1, 120A, 120C-7, and PL-15 or etc. Or also options like the R-27R1 or similar for more scenarios. More variation in our environment is desperately needed. 

 

The working principle of R-77-1 is secret!

Show me where the GPS channel is in that stupid J-11 mod that is needed for the PL-15!
The Aim-120C7 mod is also a fantasy, because it was not made by the developers and only they can implement official development in DCS World!
The AIM-120A would be much needed because it is the opponent of the R-77 and since it is not in DCS World, that is why we have to suffer on the online server with the R-27ER and fantasy J-11A+PL-12 mod against a more powerful and modern AIM-120C5!

Don't be angry with me, but it is very clear that you rely on such invented game mods!

I would also prefer to add relief to Flaming Cliffs, but unfortunately this is not possible, the game would be much more enjoyable and everyone would find their happiness. Nobody wants to make a J-11A + PL-15 server, for example, it would be a dream on the GS server to put the AIM-120D on the F-16CM and FA-18C, and let everyone have fun in the game at the highest level!

Edited September 29, 2024 by Irisz

[GRY Money]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Irisz:

that is why we have to suffer on the online server with the R-27ER and fantasy J-11A+PL-12 mod against a more powerful and modern AIM-120C5!

Talking from a competitive gameplay perspective:

Aim-120B against R-27ER was a totally good matchup but with the new memory mode gimbal change it makes crank and diving against Aim-120s hard because dipping into radar gimbal limit means your missile is trashed and the 120 carrier can continue pressing you.

Also R27R against any Aim-7 is affected by this, because Aim-7 carriers can constantly dip into gimbal memory mode and thus achieve a greater dive and crank angle and gain F-Pole advantage over you, while when you do it, your missile is lost. 

Edited September 29, 2024 by GRY Money

[Irisz]

29 minutes ago, GRY Money said:

Talking from a competitive gameplay perspective:

Aim-120B against R-27ER was a totally good matchup but with the new memory mode gimbal change it makes crank and diving against Aim-120s hard because dipping into radar gimbal limit means your missile is trashed and the 120 carrier can continue pressing you.

Also R27R against any Aim-7 is affected by this, because Aim-7 carriers can constantly dip into gimbal memory mode and thus achieve a greater dive and crank angle and gain F-Pole advantage over you, while when you do it, your missile is lost. 

 

The R-27ER is good for playing psychological suppression (if a missile is launched towards you, turn and defend yourself) As long as you launch a missile at certain times (R-27ER), you have time to get closer to your opponent and effectively defeat your opponent with R-27ET - R77 - R73 missiles!
I don't use the R-27ER that often anymore, just because of this, it's stupid and outdated, R-77 and R-27ET are better, and there is a PL-12 missile on the GS server, which can reach 160 km just like the AIM-120C5 . The R-27ER needs a modern radar because the N001 is also weak, it can track a target from an average of 60 km and if it turns, the opponent immediately loses the track, so the N001 and N019M are the best for ARH missiles because these two radars your mistakes should not affect the effectiveness of the missile!

Yes! Yes! Yes! Developers should fix this radar memory problem!

That's why my dream Flaming Cliffs plane is the Su-37, because it has a BARS radar, and because the Su-37 is the best animal in its age to go into the wolves to fight!

Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Irisz

[Muchocracker]

what is bro yappin about 

[Pavlin_33]

On 9/29/2024 at 9:45 AM, GRY Money said:

Talking from a competitive gameplay perspective:

Aim-120B against R-27ER was a totally good matchup but with the new memory mode gimbal change it makes crank and diving against Aim-120s hard because dipping into radar gimbal limit means your missile is trashed and the 120 carrier can continue pressing you.

Also R27R against any Aim-7 is affected by this, because Aim-7 carriers can constantly dip into gimbal memory mode and thus achieve a greater dive and crank angle and gain F-Pole advantage over you, while when you do it, your missile is lost. 

 

Wait, AIM-7 have no DL, so how are they supposed to keep tracking when the radar is no longer illuminating the target?

[GRY Money]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Pavlin_33:

Wait, AIM-7 have no DL, so how are they supposed to keep tracking when the radar is no longer illuminating the target?

All aim-7 carriers can over gimbal the radar and are able to guide the missile after reacquiring from memory mode. Idk why they can, i am just saying that's how it is ingame, see tracks. 

[Pavlin_33]

17 hours ago, GRY Money said:

All aim-7 carriers can over gimbal the radar and are able to guide the missile after reacquiring from memory mode. Idk why they can, i am just saying that's how it is ingame, see tracks. 

I don't think this should be possible.

[AeriaGloria]

On 10/10/2024 at 9:30 AM, GRY Money said:

All aim-7 carriers can over gimbal the radar and are able to guide the missile after reacquiring from memory mode. Idk why they can, i am just saying that's how it is ingame, see tracks. 

I mean flood mode is a real thing. The F-18 has a 70 degree azimuth gimbal limit. MiG-29 also. Not everyone is limited to 60 

[GRY Money]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb AeriaGloria:

I mean flood mode is a real thing. The F-18 has a 70 degree azimuth gimbal limit. MiG-29 also. Not everyone is limited to 60 

The Hornet can guide onto a target while being cold from it, the Mig-29 will instantly trash its missiles if you go outside of radar gimbal limits. 

[BlackPixxel]

On 9/27/2024 at 8:13 PM, ShadowFrost said:

Supposedly the radar should not enter memory mode on gimbal limits the track should just break, but the missile should recover in memory mode otherwise.

Any source of that? I think it comes from misinterpreting the manual.

Look at this MiG-29 footage:

https://youtu.be/UaDBOiYq0r4?si=AhrNiuHUT3Gh-WgM

The flare is locked by the IRST. Then the plane turns away, with the flare far outside the gimbal limits. Still the lock is not instantly lost. It stays in STT, and you can even see the IRST doing a little scanning pattern (left-right movement of the horizon-stabilized target indicator).

So any claim that lock is instantly lost is wrong.

Edited November 19, 2024 by BlackPixxel

[BlackPixxel]

There needs to be more emphasis on this issue, as the recently added behaviour and what the developers seem to be planning to do is wrong.

Let's look at the facts:

MiG-29B technical description

Yandex OCR Translation:

Quote

In addition to measuring the angular velocity of the line of sight, it is not necessary to ensure its memorization when the target signals disappear, which will allow under these conditions to accompany the target around the corners, and using the stored data. Such memorization was made possible by constructing an auto-tracking contour at the corners with second-order astatism (with two integrators). The role of one of the integrators is performed by the antenna drive motor, and the second integrator is implemented programmatically in the BCVM.

So the Radar and the FCS are indeed able to deal with interruptions in the target signal and able to extrapolate based on the memorized movement.

 

Yandex OCR-Translation:

Quote

The program for the functioning of that part of the angular tracking channel, which is implemented on the BCVM, is based on the US algorithm (angular tracking), consisting of three particular algorithms US1, US2 and US3. The US1 algorithm is the main one in the target tracking circuit. It processes the codes of Dg, Dv, mismatch signals. In this case, the necessary reinforcement (Q-factor) of the contour is formed and the equation of the integrating link with the correcting chain is solved, which provides the memory of the angular tracking system when the target signal disappears up to 4 s. The loop gain (Q factor) can be adjusted by Al potentiometers, in block II. The calculation according to the US1 algorithm proceeds with the rate of data update , i.e. with clock cycles of 20.48 ms and 51.2 ms, depending on the operating mode of the RLPC. In this regard, the US1 algorithm is completely identical to the previously considered Doppler frequency and range tracking algorithms.

Here we can see that a loss of the target signal can be dealt with by extrapolation for up to 4 seconds. Also we see at which period the algorithm is repeated. 20.48 ms when no missile is launched and 51.2 ms when targets are illuminated for semiactive missiles (which adds ~30 ms of illumination after each radar cycle).

 

Now the question is what happens when the gimbal limit is briefly exceeded while an R-27R/ER is still in the air?

It is very clear. The target signal is briefly lost. But that is not a problem, the computer will extrapolate based on the memorized target movement, and if the pilot quickly corrects his mistake, the antenna can be pointed at the extrapolated target again without leaving the target tracking mode. The illumination will of course not stop as it does right now in DCS, as we could see the algorithm respects the 20.48 ms and 51.2 ms working periods.

 

MiG-29 HUD FOOTAGE

R-73K_shot - YouTube

It is in IRST vertical scan mode, locks a flare target and fires a missile. Then it rolls 90° to the right and pulls away. This quickly puts the target outside of the vertical gimbal limit of its IRST. You can even see the exact moment where the flare leaves the IRST limit by imagining a line going from the visible IRST along the radome towards the target. Yet, the single target tracking mode does not instantly stop. It keeps going for 2 seconds. And, even more interesting, it even seems to indicate to the pilot at which corner it lost the target by wiggling back and forth the target circle. Note also how the HUD briefly disappears at the exact moment where the gimbal limit is exceeded. As if the aircraft is aware that the target just got lost, and now it is entering a dedicated mode to deal with this situation (via extrapolation for limited time).

(Note that the HUD symbology in close combat modes is very different from what we have in DCS. In the real HUD in close combat mode, the target circle will be placed in a roll stabilized view. This means that the position of the circle is correct in relation to the aircraf siluette on the HUD. The siluette is rolled 90° to the right, and the circle is in the upper left of it. This means that the target is somewhere on the lower left in releation the real aircraft. And that is exactly where the flare was when it left the gimbal limit.)

Picture of HUD when the target left the IRST gimbal limit but target tracking mode remains active for 2 seconds.

 

Conclusion

There is clear evidence that the MiG-29 (and so most likely also the Su-27 series) will extrapolate the last known target movement even when it exceeds the gimbal limit. And since the working period of the radar is kept accordingly (~20 ms or 50 ms), the target illumination for semiactive missiles will be able to remain.

In DCS it doesn't work. The target illumination instantly gets disabled, and will not even continue when the target is back within gimbal limits.

On top of that, the plan of ED seems to be to remove the extrapolation mode entirely when the gimbal limit is briefly exceeded. This is very wrong as we can see.

 

But on top of that, the issue we have in DCS is exactly the opposite. Instead of removing the memory mode feature, it needs to be added into the close combat modes where it is entirely absent right now.

As we can see from the HUD footage, it is present in close combat modes. Meanwhile in DCS, there is none. Even slightest interruptions in target signal (target notching, zero closure or exceeding limits) instantly stops the target tracking. So this is what should be worked on, not implementing imaginary limitations:

 

Edited November 21, 2024 by BlackPixxel

[Chizh]

Pure speculations.

What he considers the target ring is the sighting director ring. It must be placed in the center of the reference symbol to ensure the attack trajectory. In close combat modes there is no trajectory prolongation. Here the IRST tries to re-lock in the vertical scanning zone.

 

[Teknetinium]

Lets say the case you are describing in the video regarding EOS is correct. Dose the documentation BlackPixxel provide not point out that Instead of removing the memory mode feature, it needs to be added into the close combat modes where it is entirely absent right now. Dose the documentation provided not describing the point BlackPixxel trying to show in the video? And if so could you explain the reasoning?

15 hours ago, Chizh said:

Pure speculations.

What he considers the target ring is the sighting director ring. It must be placed in the center of the reference symbol to ensure the attack trajectory. In close combat modes there is no trajectory prolongation. Here the IRST tries to re-lock in the vertical scanning zone.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2024 by Teknetinium

[Chizh]

8 часов назад, Teknetinium сказал:

Lets say the case you are describing in the video regarding EOS is correct. Dose the documentation BlackPixxel provide not point out that Instead of removing the memory mode feature, it needs to be added into the close combat modes where it is entirely absent right now. Dose the documentation provided not describing the point BlackPixxel trying to show in the video? And if so could you explain the reasoning?

 

In close combat modes, the target lock is broken when the target goes beyond the maximum antenna gimbals angle. This is described in the combat use documents. There is no memory or prolongation in these modes.

Memory and prolongation are only available in BVR modes.

[BlackPixxel]

2 hours ago, Chizh said:

In close combat modes, the target lock is broken when the target goes beyond the maximum antenna gimbals angle. This is described in the combat use documents. There is no memory or prolongation in these modes.

Memory and prolongation are only available in BVR modes.

But surely it will not just instantly drop the lock when the target changes hemisphere within gimbal limits?

The Dmax2 is calculated under assumption that the target turns away from the fighter at constant overload, meaning it will cross through the 90° angle if it was fired upon in front hemisphere. Would be almost useless if the radar would just instantly lose the target in a close combate in that case.

[AeriaGloria]

The memory mode at gimbal limit doesn’t seem to work well (if at all) here 

 

[Teknetinium]

6 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

The memory mode at gimbal limit doesn’t seem to work well (if at all) here 

Check the documentation, That might work better! 

[AeriaGloria]

56 minutes ago, Teknetinium said:

Check the documentation, That might work better! 

Very helpful! I have read every MiG-29 weapon employment and technical manual I can get my hands on and no answer. So thanks a lot. Kindve the whole reason we are discussing this in the first place. Not trying to disprove any point just saw it and thought maybe it could be explained. Good day!