Aim120 can be trashed with a barrel roll and chaff headon

[Muchocracker]

7 hours ago, okopanja said:

I would say it was increased since the guidance could not be made more accurate, which also appears not to be the case with IRL. For the kill radius please listen and read to the actual interviews of pilots. I made some available in 29 FF section, and one of them even contains damage report. Focus was not really on amraam but you can see hopefully it will help you  understand why the current modeling in this respect has nothing to do with the reality. 

Do i have to be a broken record? This thread is not about the warhead's kill radius. Make another thread and make arguments for it there. 

If you have some new evidence that missiles can perfectly compensate for target glint and live adjust their tracking filter weighting for maximum reaction time then by all means. Post it. 

[Reslox]

On 7/12/2025 at 7:52 AM, Merrek said:

Noone is trying to dispute anything. In this thread, among other stuff, you can find, that - only AMRAAM is prone to the maneuver described by GRY Money - debunked. I am also trying to raise the issue that this is NOT a MP AoA roll, as it contains no AoA and happens in SP. How many times do we need to write that down?

I am not talking AT ALL about MP AoA roll in any context other than comparing this cheating unsporting unrealistic abused exploitative move (not even working in SP) to something that could and most probably would actually work IRL and also works in game. These are completely different maneuvers, with different techniques and results (dodging missiles from all direction vs one direction only, etc.) Have you actually read what I wrote or are you simply putting words in my mouth?

What angers you? I have never ever done the MP AoA in my life and I have just performed one single instance of the "sync" roll and I'm immediately reporting on it! Are you mad that at the moment you can't to this against an R-27 (in a few weeks/months you will be able to) or that I proved something that was deemed impossible?

Of course, it's risky. And it works against Aim-7 and will most probably work against every missile in the new API with any reasonable tracking delay. And it is 100x more realistic than the current state of the notch, with which you have no issue at all, right?

Jeez.

This is honestly the last type of answer, I'd expect. Can you please focus at the thing at hand, instead of attacking me? Imagine someone else's name in the post, if it helps.

For the last time: You can dodge missiles in DCS head-on with some expected success probability. This is not due to MP, desync, lag, ping, or teleport. This can be done against AI in SP. This maneuver has its ground in maths & physics and is totally completely different from the infamous MP "loaded" AoA whatever roll, which relies on sudden spike changes in key aircraft performance metrics (I wouldn't know, as I've never performed it, but I read what other people wrote and watched all videos), while beating missiles in the physics-first way, requires an extremely smooth, calculated, cold-blooded approach and some luck. Can we please debate (I'm really interested in people's opinions on this) what do you think of this maneuvre, how do you perceive it and if it can be distinguished from the infamous banned MP roll, could we ever see its use in PVP servers as a last-resort maneuver ? That's the issue, not to trivialize the "old" freakin maneuver. I guarantee you those cheaters would never pull this one off.

The only Gifs, tracks or tacviews I've seen so far are performing an aileron rolls and not barrel rolls, it's really clear that it is a bug that MP desync exacerbates but its also present in single player. Documents of both recommended defense maneuvers and missile performance show clearly displacement of (over 100m in the defense maneuver docs) of both the horizontal and vertical plane when performing High G Barrel Rolls is necessary, so to claim that this maneuver is an effective means of defense when there is barely any displacement of the actual flight path is naive at best. Whether this is a consequence of how radar returns are modeled or last second missile guidance corrections cocking up at the last second is for ED to figure out.
I speculate from the tracks and tacview footage provided in the thread that the missile is trying to lead and intercept the target's current flight path even though with the closure rate, current distance, and the target being in the center of the seeker should be a clear hit with a pure pursuit.

[Merrek]

16 hours ago, Reslox said:

The only Gifs, tracks or tacviews I've seen so far are performing an aileron rolls and not barrel rolls, it's really clear that it is a bug that MP desync exacerbates but its also present in single player.

No, you can't tell from my GIFs, how much of vertical maneuvering there is and that's the idea. The last thing I'm going to do is teach blue how to use their planes to dodge amraams. Moderate Gs are pulled in conjunction with the "resonant" roll. If you don't understand, what the key ingredient in the maneuver is, don't speculate or mistify. It has nothing to do with desync, what would I desync with on my computer, not even a dedicated server? And if it's so easy, why don't you repeat it with only the aileron roll?

F-16 and F-5 can dodge amraams because they have superior roll rate. If anyone wanted to abuse this, they'd set up a saturation for the joystick Y axis, so maximum roll is held, without any skill or thinking and I'm not going to promote that. Depending on the missile energy, which can be roughly estimated (altitude, speed, lofting or not), you just need to fly directly towards it and set the correct speed, roll rate and Gs. It's really that easy. If I wasn't working 12 hrs a day, I would've posted the "3 amraams in a row" GIF a week ago. It can be studied and practiced. But why spend tens of hours on a maneuver that's banned anyway, because "experts" can't differentiate between the rolls?

Yes, the previous maneuvers before all the "fixes", if you can even call that, were only aileron rolls, that any noob could replicate. Now it takes some thinking and practice, that's the only difference. The maneuver can't be performed by chance or luck unlike before. If MP desync was penalized by instant disconnect of the abusing player, then you'd see who can perform the proper dodging barrel roll (won't get disconnected) without sudden AoA spikes, 8+ Gs and unexpected motions performed only to fool the game that can't even plot the next pixel, where the plane is going to be and missiles can't track something that disappears. This proper "synchronized resonant" barrel roll is one single fluid motion with perfect parameters, nothing chaotic or random.

There is a huge "displacement" of the current flight path, unlike what you think, and that's why it is possible to create 25m+ separation from the missile at merge, even if it's amraam.

The tracks and tacview footage is old news, before the changes in missile tracking logic and proximity fuze range. No information there. And I'm not providing any tacviews to be studied and abused. I merely wanted to:

1. prove it's still doable against AMRAAM
2. prove it's doable against Aim-7 and probably will be doable against every missile on the new API
3. provide an explanation using some kind of physics and logic beyond speculation

If you study the amraam closely, you'll identify it switches to the pure pursuit in the very terminal stages of the interception, singles of km. How do you think pure pursuit works, if target is maneuvering nonstop? The tracking delay will always be an issue IRL and also in the new API missiles, if nothing else, then only because of the inertia of the missile itself. Then start including all the electronics and software, etc., I wrote it all before, have you read it?

The reason, why the missile misses you, could be best described as follows:

1 - the missile is trying to lead your nose (velocity vector to be hardcore)
2 - you start performing the maneuver at the proper distance from the missile (again, this needs to be judged and practiced, observing contrails, etc.)
3 - missile starts maneuvering with you, after the tracking delay
4 - you're keeping the "resonant" roll rate and tight barrel roll with realistic AoA and Gs
5 - the missile starts trailing you, aims below your belly
6 - if you've kept the roll rate in the ideal window, you create and offset in the missile tracking of about 90-180 degs on the barrel roll circle (front view - missile POV)
7 - if you can keep this to the "merge", you've successfully created a distance offset between yourself and the missile
8 - if this distance offset is bigger than the missile's proximity fuze range, the missile misses you and doesn't explode

The missile does track the whole time, but it is chasing the "old" you, where you were 0.7 seconds ago. How much distance does a fighter flying at 1000kmh+ move in 0.7 seconds? How much is the proximity fuze range? What if the maneuver is not "flying predictably straight" but a barrel roll deliberately constructed in such a way, that when you are "up", the missile is "down"? How many words one needs to use to describe it so it's understandable?