Hunting for the stutter-free VR experience.

[sleighzy]

New tool from Fred for performance profiling OpenXR games, e.g. DCS. Good info on FPS, frametimes, VRAM usage, throttling, etc. May help isolate some things. https://github.com/fredemmott/XRFrameTools

Edited December 18, 2024 by sleighzy

[Panzerlang]

8 hours ago, Moxica said:

I have no other games stuttering my cpu, nor the 4090. Not even close. So no, they do not do that with all games.

That's because those games aren't making so many demands on the CPU. You have a whole bunch of OS processes using the CPU, let's say 10% and DCS tries to use 94%. That 4% over the top causes stutter. Your other games are 50%, 63% etc, lots of overhead left over.

Two possible solutions...more powerful CPUs and/or ED get into AI and use it to rewrite/optimise the DCS code.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Panzerlang

[Moxica]

14 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

That's because those games aren't making so many demands on the CPU. You have a whole bunch of OS processes using the CPU, let's say 10% and DCS tries to use 94%. That 4% over the top causes stutter. Your other games are 50%, 63% etc, lots of overhead left over.

Two possible solutions...more powerful CPUs and/or ED get into AI and use it to rewrite/optimise the DCS code.

Nice and obvious theory. But the stutter start already in the game menu.
Nothing should put any stress on CPU.
Today was actually fine for a little moment. But then I clicked the campaign mission line. and: "Brrrrrrrr"
-Not even starting the mission. Something is very wrong.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Moxica

[Panzerlang]

Just now, Moxica said:

Nice and obvious theory. But the stutter start already in the game menu.
Nothing should put any stress on CPU.
Today was actually fine for a little moment. But then I clicked the campaign mission line. and: "Brrrrrrrr"
Something is very wrong.

Yeah, the intro video in the launcher always does a jerk (the carrier) before it settles down.

We can't know how much of it is down to potentially iffy code or if it's purely different combinations of hardware struggling with well optimised but very demanding code. I'm certainly no expert on the hardware but, intuitively, I'm aware that motherboards (for instance) come with countless different types, brands and qualities of components. That then have to interface and interact with other bits of hardware that themselves have varying types and qualities of components. Then add weirdness. Why do two taxying Mig21s stutter past my parked plane on the ground when, in the air, I see dogfighting planes that exhibit zero stutter? No idea. THAT is counter-intuitive.

Regardless of all that, DCS loads a HUGE and very complex map AND has very complex AI routines running all kinds of assets (planes, ships and vehicles). That requires as much top-end hardware as you can throw at it and your CPU is a weak link in that equation. So is mine, unfortunately and as soon as the 9800X3D is available at a regular price I'll be upgrading to it. And will probably still see a bit of stutter.

[Moxica]

20 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

Yeah, the intro video in the launcher always does a jerk (the carrier) before it settles down.

We can't know how much of it is down to potentially iffy code or if it's purely different combinations of hardware struggling with well optimised but very demanding code. I'm certainly no expert on the hardware but, intuitively, I'm aware that motherboards (for instance) come with countless different types, brands and qualities of components. That then have to interface and interact with other bits of hardware that themselves have varying types and qualities of components. Then add weirdness. Why do two taxying Mig21s stutter past my parked plane on the ground when, in the air, I see dogfighting planes that exhibit zero stutter? No idea. THAT is counter-intuitive.

Regardless of all that, DCS loads a HUGE and very complex map AND has very complex AI routines running all kinds of assets (planes, ships and vehicles). That requires as much top-end hardware as you can throw at it and your CPU is a weak link in that equation. So is mine, unfortunately and as soon as the 9800X3D is available at a regular price I'll be upgrading to it. And will probably still see a bit of stutter.

But it was fine before last update: 90 FPS and great graphics. No stutter on G2's.
(I since got Pimax C Light)

[Panzerlang]

4 minutes ago, Moxica said:

But it was fine before last update: 90 FPS and great graphics. No stutter on G2's.
(I since got Pimax C Light)

They added some new world features.

[Panzerlang]

Putting this here too, hopefully ok...

I'm guessing this is a new item in W11 24H2, 'Game Bar'. The picture says most of it. Unfortunately the screenie doesn't capture the DCS FPS window but that, as always, was giving the "CPU Bound, Main Thread" message, in mostly red but sometimes yellow. Meanwhile the Game Bar window (have to alt-tab to see it) shows CPU at 37%. 
I'm assuming the Game Bar app is functioning correctly.

On the up-side, this Game Bar has a video capture function and I could see no sign of it sucking resources that impacted visibly on the game. It records from the VR one-eye monitor output though, so the resolution isn't great. Other great news, the Mig21s that used to stutter past me while taxying are now almost totally stutter free. I think the fresh W11 install has fixed a lot of issues.

But back to the main issue and what is my dumbass missing here? CPU at only 37% while the game is running (not paused) but DCS says "CPU Bound"? Eh? Whut?!

[WipeUout]

8 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

But back to the main issue and what is my dumbass missing here? CPU at only 37% while the game is running (not paused) but DCS says "CPU Bound"? Eh? Whut?!

Your total CPU usage may show bellow 100% but there are multiple threads running and if one of them used by DCS is hitting 100%, then it is a problem and may cause stutters.  You need to look at all cores and see if one seems overloaded.  Overall CPU load does not give the complete story.

12 hours ago, Panzerlang said:

Yeah, the intro video in the launcher always does a jerk (the carrier) before it settles down.

This is caused by the automatic login process.

[Blackhawk163]

Whelp, my stutter is mostly gone, I made one change to my setup up, and I'm not touching anything else. I set the PCL to 72 because that's where I get the most consistent FPS. For me I'm chasing a balance of visuals and smooth consistent performance render to .78 (in dcs it's still 1.0). I'm running Quadviews XR in conjunction with FFR in openxr toolkit. NIS on and with a 1 inner 1/6 medium 1/6 outer ring in FFR settings. I've been running this setup for weeks and I mostly hover between 70-72fps (I always test after the BFM in Tarinkot quick mission either in the 14 or the F4, orbit over the airfield at about 15 units @400kts and 200ft)

In the past I'd get the same issue, smooth out the front with that slight annoying stutter off the sides. I made one change today as I was curious to see if @Ready is a pulling a King Tantalous or if he's on to something:

Disable Power Throttling. Local Group Policy Editor > Administrative Templates > System > Power Management > Power Throttling Settings > Turn off Power Throttling > Enabled

Reducing Latency and Interupts: PowerSettingsExplorer: Processor performance Time Check Interval -> 5.000 for active Power scheme

 

I did that, and just that. I don't run process lasso, I'm just OC'd to 5.4ghz -30 curve,1.225v max, expo on, SMT on, MB limits on the PBO side. My meager 4080s has its factory OC plus my Msi afterburner oc on top of that at 150 for the clock and 1000+ for memory. All this and still had the stutter before today. Now it's mostly gone only appearing for a second or two should I get a quick dip from say 72-67fps, and then it's gone.

[Panzerlang]

8 minutes ago, Blackhawk163 said:

Whelp, my stutter is mostly gone, I made one change to my setup up, and I'm not touching anything else. I set the PCL to 72 because that's where I get the most consistent FPS. For me I'm chasing a balance of visuals and smooth consistent performance render to .78 (in dcs it's still 1.0). I'm running Quadviews XR in conjunction with FFR in openxr toolkit. NIS on and with a 1 inner 1/6 medium 1/6 outer ring in FFR settings. I've been running this setup for weeks and I mostly hover between 70-72fps (I always test after the BFM in Tarinkot quick mission either in the 14 or the F4, orbit over the airfield at about 15 units @400kts and 200ft)

In the past I'd get the same issue, smooth out the front with that slight annoying stutter off the sides. I made one change today as I was curious to see if @Ready is a pulling a King Tantalous or if he's on to something:

Disable Power Throttling. Local Group Policy Editor > Administrative Templates > System > Power Management > Power Throttling Settings > Turn off Power Throttling > Enabled

Reducing Latency and Interupts: PowerSettingsExplorer: Processor performance Time Check Interval -> 5.000 for active Power scheme

 

I did that, and just that. I don't run process lasso, I'm just OC'd to 5.4ghz -30 curve,1.225v max, expo on, SMT on, MB limits on the PBO side. My meager 4080s has its factory OC plus my Msi afterburner oc on top of that at 150 for the clock and 1000+ for memory. All this and still had the stutter before today. Now it's mostly gone only appearing for a second or two should I get a quick dip from say 72-67fps, and then it's gone.

So what was the "one thing"? Your post is confusing.

[Blackhawk163]

22 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

So what was the "one thing"? Your post is confusing.

Disable Power Throttling. Local Group Policy Editor > Administrative Templates > System > Power Management > Power Throttling Settings > Turn off Power Throttling > Enabled

Reducing Latency and Interupts:PowerSettingsExplorer: Processor performance Time Check Interval -> 5.000 for active Power scheme

I guess technically two things. But that’s what I did. 

[Qcumber]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk163 said:

I'm running Quadviews XR in conjunction with FFR in openxr toolkit. NIS on and with a 1 inner 1/6 medium 1/6 outer ring in FFR settings

Do you mean you have QVFR running at the same time as FFR in OXRTK? The QVFR guide notes advise against this. 

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki#openxr-toolkit

[Panzerlang]

2 hours ago, Blackhawk163 said:

 

Disable Power Throttling. Local Group Policy Editor > Administrative Templates > System > Power Management > Power Throttling Settings > Turn off Power Throttling > Enabled

Reducing Latency and Interupts:PowerSettingsExplorer: Processor performance Time Check Interval -> 5.000 for active Power scheme

I guess technically two things. But that’s what I did. 

I can't find the Latency stuff. Did the power throttling disable though (by enabling it, lol).

[Moxica]

Should not be that complicated:

null

[Ready]

7 hours ago, Blackhawk163 said:

In the past I'd get the same issue, smooth out the front with that slight annoying stutter off the sides. I made one change today as I was curious to see if @Ready is a pulling a King Tantalous or if he's on to something:

Hehe well.. I hope there is something useful in there. Stuff I do does not always work for others, and sometimes also does not work for me

[gonvise]

5 hours ago, Qcumber said:

Do you mean you have QVFR running at the same time as FFR in OXRTK? The QVFR guide notes advise against this. 

https://github.com/mbucchia/Quad-Views-Foveated/wiki#openxr-toolkit

I was also curious about this... in my case I keep switching between QVFR and FR toolkit depending on the patch, but I doubt that both at the same time is doing anything good...

[Qcumber]

1 minute ago, gonvise said:

I was also curious about this... in my case I keep switching between QVFR and FR toolkit depending on the patch, but I doubt that both at the same time is doing anything good...

I have not actually tried having both at the same time. I imagine it would create some issues. 

[Blackhawk163]

I thought the same and yet I have none (problems) 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Blackhawk163

[Marshallman]

I have both running but to be clear its the QV companion......No problems

Regards

[Blackhawk163]

1 minute ago, Marshallman said:

I have both running but to be clear its the QV companion......No problems

Regards

Yup I have openxr tool kit, pimax xr with quadviews checked and QV companion with my settings. Zero issues. 

[Ready]

On 12/18/2024 at 8:02 AM, Special K said:

Sorry haven't seen it earlier.

There were some significant performances improvements by AMD that they only applied to Windows 11, so I would assume that yes. It's a completely different story than with the E-core CPUs though.

I am still on W10, reaply on the fence and have not yet been convinced to move to W11. I also read about possibility of degradations and new issues. 

[Marshallman]

1 hour ago, Ready said:

I am still on W10, reaply on the fence and have not yet been convinced to move to W11. I also read about possibility of degradations and new issues. 

Stay on 10 for time being is my advice and current setup.

[Blackhawk163]

4 hours ago, Ready said:

Hehe well.. I hope there is something useful in there. Stuff I do does not always work for others, and sometimes also does not work for me

There might be. I dunno, but since implementing that one line I quoted from you, it seems my system has settled into a really good rhythm of sorts. The only time I get stutters is when over densely populated areas (think Baghdad) which was my normal anyway even outside cities. Now when that happens It takes a second or to but goes back to smooth side views. Gone, presto whammo lol

 

Maybe something else is happening, dunno, but for now you get the credit  at least for my case.

[Ready]

2 minutes ago, Blackhawk163 said:

There might be. I dunno, but since implementing that one line I quoted from you, it seems my system has settled into a really good rhythm of sorts. The only time I get stutters is when over densely populated areas (think Baghdad) which was my normal anyway even outside cities. Now when that happens It takes a second or to but goes back to smooth side views. Gone, presto whammo lol

 

Maybe something else is happening, dunno, but for now you get the credit  at least for my case.

Nice, good it works!

[Qcumber]

4 hours ago, Blackhawk163 said:

Yup I have openxr tool kit, pimax xr with quadviews checked and QV companion with my settings. Zero issues. 

The issue is running QVFR and dynamic/fixed foveated rendering in OXRTK. The advice from mbucchia is not to use both as they are both methods of foveated rendering.