Multi-player issues

[159_Archer]

Speaking as a mission builder in the 159th, and from what I experience in our squad-flights, I would like to mention the biggest problems we are encountering with the mission-editor and when we're in MP flights.

 

Actually making missions is a much more long-winded process than it is with LOFC; with LOFC I can make a good mission in between 1 and 2 hours and know it will work fine. With BS it takes at least 4 times longer to get a similar mission working -and even then I cannot be sure it will work correctly.

 

The results after building a mission seem to work differently when you run missions in either single, multi-player or then again in MP on another machine. Each time you run a mission things happen differently or not at all (but not how you programmed them...).

 

The biggest problems are the triggers, time-delayed units or similar; anything basically that is not just placed on the map in simple terms.

 

I can get big missions to run fine if I just place units on the map and don't ask anything more than movement from them; if I start to do anything fancier then it is likely it won't work when we run the mission as a squad flight.

 

The 159th has 3 main mission builders and we all have the same problems, so I think it must be software related and not specific to our machines.

 

Is any work being carried out on the sim that will likely sort these issues out, or at least some of them? -It's a shame to have such a good machine to fly but then not be able to build the missions you really want to, to test yourself and the Ka-50!

[JG14_Smil]

you guys are doing a great job with what you have and it is appreciated. Everytime I look at the maps, I see the care it took to place those units just so...

 

I am sure things will improve with the patch and look forward to what you guys can do then :)

[Panzertard]

Agree - and kudos for that, Archer

The time involved in making, but also testing a mission is unnecessary high.

 

Why - whats wrong you say?

The main cause for this is that you need to load up the mission in the simluator every time you want to test something.

When you have more than 100 units, triggers assigned to those - then you have a myriad of things to check out and test. You quite easilly loose control of what you did check, whats working and what needs to be adjusted.

This means you need to check 2,3,4 elements - go back and adjust them - and load everything up again. Repeat this again for all elements - and several rounds of adjustment.

 

Just too much time spent on QA.

 

What alternatives are there

Run a MP-Server:

• Well - the obvious one is to start a server on the side and reload the mission for each change.
  But hey - that requires a extra license. :(
  
• And it may also requires a extra large monitor - or two to be effective. Or even two computers. To be effective.
  

Longer term:

Better tools for building, adjusting and monitoring unit (AI) behaviour and trigger activities.

A few examples:

• Mission editor should be able to display the exact position of units - zoom down to the levels of the simulation, as well as attitudes and elevations.
  
• A timeline tool, maybe able to use a slider to indicate when timebased triggers and units change behaviour - and reflect the position of the units over time.
  
• Easily select / deselect / and FILTER units selected - and change their properties "by group". Eg when selecting all BLUE unints, change visibility (or direction or any other property) to a similar value for all the units.
  
• Automaticly show all relevant properties for a unit in a properties window - and ability to change the properties on the fly.
  
• Copy & Paste ... of "anything". This is just a basic need for any object oriented editor.
  

There are so many oportunities to improve the editor.

Unfortunately I think the true limitation may be the choise to use LUA as a platform for the editor. This may cost us the ability to get a truly effective and userfriendly editor.

 

I hope ED can think out a strategy for the editor and improve it along the timeline of DCS.

I also hope they are able to reconsider the strategy for using LUA for the platform - but then again I dont know about all the benfits from using it, instead I can only see the downside, so I might be proven wrong quite easily. :)

[Druid_]

159_ARcher, I couldn't agree more. For a sim that had great potential and realism they really let themselves down with the MP element.

 

Anyway here's some problems I've encountered mission building along with a few solutions/workarounds.

 

1) Units/groups on a Road may stop for no reason! If you check you may have a hidden unactivated unit at the point. Solution - place unactivated units offroad with wpt 2 onroad.

 

2) Time since flag set. I use this a lot for multi part missions & messaging/activatiing units. Unfortunately though it appears that the clock starts for a player when he joins the mission i.e. The time since the flag was set is not taken from the server running the mission which is very strange. Ok if all multi players start together as soon as the server is unpaused/mission-started. Also time continues if a player dies/ejects and rejoins in same helo for take-off. It doesn't however work if he leaves server and comes back in again. Solution - make all players start at same time and hope no-one has a game crash. Also use time since flag x set along with unit alive/dead where possible. This is a very annoying problem as players start getting the wrong messages and CAS missions along with a FOC are nearly impossible to run (shame as this is how they are used mostly).

 

3) Occasionally convoys get stuck on a road if a unit is destroyed on it, regardless of coalition. I've tried destroying a unit in the vague hope the units behind will start moving, sometimes it works, others not. Solution - None really other than keep all other units ahead of a moving convoy off the road and hope your convoy go around any dead units in front. Also check to see if a convoy has reached an area by a specific time and if it hasnt, spawn another ahead.

 

4) Some missions just c++ crash your PC. I worked for ages on a 3 part multi-farp mission only to ditch it as everyone kept getting C++ PC crashes. Server kept running but players PCs didnt. Solution - ???

 

5) Units get stuck on certain gradients of slope when offroad. Some of the gradients they stop on are ridiculously low and I have spent ages trying to re-route units only to find they stop on another low incline. Solution - ??? spend hours routing units offroad through the hills!!

 

6) Enemy ammo, especially TOWs go through buildings as if they were invisible making it hard to place a hidden FARP that they can't destroy but close to the action. Solution - place hard friendly objects/buildings around the perimeter.

 

7) Cant get 2 aircraft/heli's in formation to attack at same time, one will always peel away. Solution - ONly use singles and place them on a converging track with the weapons release point more then 300m apart.

 

8.) Amphibian vehicles won't cross the water - shame really as that would be a great feature. Also can't place boats and ships in estuaries or large rivers.

 

9) If you use a trigger based on UNIT DEAD and it hasn't yet been activated yet, then although technically it isn't dead yet the trigger will still activate. Solution - SET a FLAG to TRUE when the unit is activated and place a condition statement to check if same flag is true in the UNIT DEAD condition.

 

10) ALL AI aircraft and heli's will not open fire on a target if its mission role is set to NOTHING even though a weapons payload has been specified.

 

11) The mission building map is innacurate. i.e place a unit next to a building and it will appear in the building when you run it to check it. Solution - DCS provide us with an accurate user-friendly realtime mission editor please!

 

12) If you have 4 client ka50s on an airfield and others set to spawn on a FARP then they will not spawn on the FARP correctly. A definite bug I'm afraid. Solution - Don't use the airfield, or place the FARP on the airfield but remember you will still need the support vehicles within 150m unless you take-off and land on the airfield itself.

 

13) NOt a problem but hopefully a solution for some. I use flags a lot. It does make building a lot more flexible and may reduce the amount of trigger code you have to write.

 

I'm sure there are more but those are the ones that immediately spring to mind. I hope it helps other mission builders as I have spent hours trying to solve some of the above problems.

 

It would be nice if there was a FORUM heading just for mission building so all builders could share information. Speaking of which if anyone wants to add to my list by posting then I certainly would appreciate it.

 

Rgds Druid_

Edited June 29, 2009 by Druid_

[Druid_]

Does anyone know of a good forum site for Realistic Mission Builders. Not interested in building duck shoot missions and creating realistic ones with the current ME takes forever, especially when you consider the number of problems and bugs to contend with.

 

Was hoping to start some dialogue with my reply above but guess there are a LOT more flyers than mission builders.

 

At the end of the day, once you've become fairly competent at flying the ak50 it's the quality of the mission that makes the challenge. Plus for me, the more realistic the better.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Druid_

[Panzertard]

Some of the guys over at the 159th created this site:

www.blackshark.me

They were hoping to gather missionbuilders over there - but realized it may be a bit too soon (waiting for a new and improved ME I think).