Reload Livery in Mission Editor

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

In release 2.9.20.15010 it is announced: 

"Added livery selection to encyclopedia with ability to seamlessly reload livery (will help livery creators to check changes made to the livery, without restarting DCS) WIP we will look for feedback. A more detailed tool for viewing models inside DCS is planned."

Since feedback is requested... A simple reload of textures in the ME will not be a sufficient replacement for the powerful Model Viewer and will not placate the vast majority of Livery artists. While the effort to work around the difficulties that encryption has emplaced is much appreciated, I would ask that dev / team efforts be directed into returning functionality of the MV rather than the minimal "solution" of simply refreshing in the ME.

We (Skinners) are mostly of the opinion that it IS possible to revise the Model Viewer to work with encrypted files. If this is incorrect, please state so and explain why.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:40 PM by II.JG1_Vonrd

[Mach3DS]

I believe you mean "...replacement for the powerful [Model Viewer]...".  But Yes.  It's not just about refreshing the textures, although that waste of time is without a doubt a big problem.  Without the ability to manipulate the model in 3D space with the same functionality as Model Viewer, then it's little good for alignment purposes.  Yes, it cuts the time down to see the changes but you can't get close enough or the right angles to see fine details if it remains as it currently is.  You can't change the lighting to see how it looks in various lighting conditions.  You also can't see, All the other file types or Channels.  ROUGHMETS (AO, CAVITY, ROUGHNESS, METALLIC etc.), NORMALS, MATERIAL ERRORS.  You can't export LUA code for livery files.  Show attach points.  Load additional models for things like drop tanks etc.  when creating custom paints for those.  Pilot models, Argument related texture changes.  The whole host of items that currently provide a unparalleled experience for creating content for DCS.  Going away from this is truly going back to the stone ages in time and MASSIVE REGRESSION in capability.  I don't frankly care what's planned, for some future unknown date.  This is a 100% HERE & NOW issue.  The other massive elephant in the room now, is that we have to have the FULL GAME running while we're trying to work in apps like Photoshop, GIMP etc.  Good luck with that.  RAM is a huge issue.  This will cause major performance problems and running out of memory.  Which leads to Photoshop crashing, losing work, and corruption of PSD files with a big chance of making them unusable.  It will 100% make work slower to save etc etc.  This is s full stop terrible idea IMHO.  I wish Nick Grey would read these threads from the major art content creators and step in with a edict from on high.  This is one of those ideas that if it were in my board room, I would have shut down.  Immediately.   Alas, it's not.   So, please, read this with the sincerity it's written with.  I'm not slinging insults.  I actually care about this hobby and this sim.  This is actually a bad idea.  You can't make it a good one.  Hopefully, mods don't just delete my post.  Again, wouldn't just making MV have the ability to check your account be WAY easier than trying to add all the abilities of MV to DCS?  The entire point of having a Model viewer is to Not to have to load the FULL game while working, so that you don't have to compete for resources of a game while needing them for the dev tools!

Of course none of this matters when you encrypt the actual textures along with the model files.  You can't access the textures to know the names, or use them as a basis for any improvements.  So, without being able to even see the files on my drive, there's little point.  This is an even bigger issue than than encrypting a model.  Without providing all the files as paint templates, there's no way to use them, know their names or make any LUA entry edits anyway.   I don't think this one was thought through all the way.  No offense is intended in that statement, just seems like a knee jerk reaction, with a big pendulum swing consequence.  And as stated many many times in the past, will not solve the issue they think it will, and only hurts the very community they are looking to buy their products.

Respectfully,

Mach3DS 

Edited Wednesday at 08:11 PM by Mach3DS

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Stated so much better than I could. Thank you @Mach3DS!

 

[Wyvern]

as a suggestion/guide on what most creators are asking for, here a small list of stuff we basically ask for:

-Weather and Time Sliders
-Generating Description.lua files
-Ability to add stores to planes and select the livery for them (done through the "Scene tab" in MV)
-FOV Tool
-Ability to load multiple models at once
-Viewing modes for:
    ->Diffuse
    ->Roughness
    ->Metallic
    ->Normals/DiffuseLight (normal filter has colors, diff light is greyscale)
    ->AO
    ->Cavity
    ->Self Illumination

-Ability to load cockpits
       Used together with the next point:

-ability to manipulate args 
       This is mostly used by tutorial mission creators to trigger the next step of the tutorial after the correct switch has been flipped
       Livery Creators use it to extend the gear, move Control Surfaces, move engine nozzles, etc

The one thing regarding the encryption that we would ask for, is to have the Livery folders, and the Texture folders de-encrypted, should encyption be implemented

Everyone knows that it is extremely easy to rip textures out of a game, even if its all encrypted.
The model is another story, but as for the Livery folders and Textures, it only punishes the Community, and doesnt change anything for people actually stealing assets.

as for running it seperately,
DCS doesnt really use much in the menu/encyclopedia, so i do believe that could be an option. Just as long as its not Mission editor.
But the modelviewer is indeed is lighter, which is important for specifically heavy templates (tomcat, 8k hornets, my flanker temps)
However, the modelviewer is also missing the entire anti piracy components, so i see why ED doesnt want to keep that.
 

Overall, i think the main ask from the community in this regard is that Modelviewer doesnt get replaced or made obsolete, UNTIL it can can be replaced and/or gets added to the game with all its important functions.
I personally would prefer if it simply becomes part of the game, maybe as a seperate menu called "Scene Viewer" or "Livery Creator" seperate from ME as Mission editor loads extra assets (like terrain textures for the map view) which can be too heavy.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:45 PM by Wyvern

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

2 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

However, the modelviewer is also missing the entire anti piracy components, so i see why ED doesnt want to keep that.
 

Whatever the existant "anti-piracy components" are, could they not be implemented into the MV? Asking in ignorance... I don't know.

 

[Wyvern]

DCS has a DRM that load via a DLL at start up

Funny enough, its second DLL, with the first one being edsound.dll, which is how most people bypass stuff to mess with the game, as they just make the game load a dll before the DRM dll gets loaded afaik

i think it could be implemented, i dont see why it wouldnt work, though idk how that all works in detail either

[Mach3DS]

15 minutes ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

Whatever the existant "anti-piracy components" are, could they not be implemented into the MV? Asking in ignorance... I don't know.

 

That's my questions as well.  Like, is it in actuality easier, and less time, work and resource intensive to add all these features into the core game, rather than just have people load model viewer with a login like you do for DCS anyway?  I mean, it just seems counter-intuitive.

[Wyvern]

My thinking is that the DRM is checking for a lot of files within the game, as in ALL the modules, 
since almost everything in DCS is a module.

 

[Awacs_bandog]

I think this hit anything I could add to the topic... Just give MV the ability to open up the Encrypted files, 



giving us slop and telling us to be happy aint gonna cut it, unless they want a repeat of the F-5 Competition where no one showed up

[Cydrych]

Speaking from my own point of view model viewer is already kind of janky and if we are forced to use anything less capable than what model viewer is now I probably will be done making liveries. Skinning is time consuming and tedious so making it more difficult just to make it harder to pirate textures and models, yeah, I just can't be bothered with it.

I also don't want to have to load the whole game either. I'm already pushing the RAM limit with GIMP and MV open because I'm usually working in multiple files at the same time to match textures up on different parts of the plane. So if it has to be hooked into the DCS files for account verification and decryption then release "model viewer 2.0" as a free module you download into the DCS root directory and have it launch from the DCS launcher as a standalone app after you sign in.   

[Mach3DS]

21 minutes ago, Cydrych said:

Speaking from my own point of view model viewer is already kind of janky and if we are forced to use anything less capable than what model viewer is now I probably will be done making liveries. Skinning is time consuming and tedious so making it more difficult just to make it harder to pirate textures and models, yeah, I just can't be bothered with it.

I also don't want to have to load the whole game either. I'm already pushing the RAM limit with GIMP and MV open because I'm usually working in multiple files at the same time to match textures up on different parts of the plane. So if it has to be hooked into the DCS files for account verification and decryption then release "model viewer 2.0" as a free module you download into the DCS root directory and have it launch from the DCS launcher as a standalone app after you sign in.   

This is a great idea.  

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Maybe I have jumped the gun a bit having only read the release notes about "Added livery selection to encyclopedia with ability to seamlessly reload livery"  

I just assumed that the new release MiG-29 Fulcrum would be encrypted. Out of curiosity I tried looking for the .edm files and found them in Coremods the same as usual prior to encryption. I then opened Model Viewer and IT LOADED! Hopefully this isn't just some mistake by ED through the hecticness during release. If this is to be the norm, all is saved. Am I missing something? 

[BIGNEWY]

Thank you for the feedback, but as the change log mentioned 

• Added livery selection to encyclopaedia with ability to seamlessly reload livery (will help livery creators to check changes made to the livery, without restarting DCS) WIP we will look for feedback. A more detailed tool for viewing models inside DCS is planned.

thank you 

 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Does that mean that encryption will continue and be incorporated into the MiG-29 in the future and thus rendering the Model Viewer still useless? Will this planned "more detailed tool" match the abilities of the extant Model Viewer? If so, that would be wonderful but if not... all of the above issues and complaints will surely return. I certainly have all fingers and toes crossed in anticipation of a resolution satisfactory to all.

Thank you

[Alpiinoo]

I think the system is fine temporarily. It's better than nothing. However, some models only have the default livery option, for example the Phantom.

[Wyvern]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Thank you for the feedback, but as the change log mentioned 

• Added livery selection to encyclopaedia with ability to seamlessly reload livery (will help livery creators to check changes made to the livery, without restarting DCS) WIP we will look for feedback. A more detailed tool for viewing models inside DCS is planned.

thank you 

 

Yes we are aware, 
We are just giving you the feedback.

Just try to make sure we get those features without having to load the Mission Editor, and youll have nobody complaining:

18 hours ago, Wyvern said:

as a suggestion/guide on what most creators are asking for, here a small list of stuff we basically ask for:

-Weather and Time Sliders
-Generating Description.lua files
-Ability to add stores to planes and select the livery for them (done through the "Scene tab" in MV)
-FOV Tool
-Ability to load multiple models at once
-Viewing modes for:
    ->Diffuse
    ->Roughness
    ->Metallic
    ->Normals/DiffuseLight (normal filter has colors, diff light is greyscale)
    ->AO
    ->Cavity
    ->Self Illumination

-Ability to load cockpits
       Used together with the next point:

-ability to manipulate args 
       This is mostly used by tutorial mission creators to trigger the next step of the tutorial after the correct switch has been flipped
       Livery Creators use it to extend the gear, move Control Surfaces, move engine nozzles, etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

Hopefully this isn't just some mistake by ED through the hecticness during release

I agree, lets hope this is not the case

Edited Thursday at 03:31 PM by Wyvern

[Mach3DS]

Let's hope this isn't a bait a switch situation.  Hold Livery Competition.  Get Liveries.  Fully Encrypt after the fact.  That would be supremely Underhanded.  I'm hopeful that this is not this situation.  It's a good sign.