Who in the Lomac Community uses radar Automization?

[GGTharos]

Kuky,

 

The mod is available to all people, all aircraft.

I might as well claim that you shouldn't be working in a team because that doesn't constitute equal playing ground, but in any case, these arguments are moot.

 

Either way: Enforce it on your server if you want, it is your prerogative and your reason for doing so is as good as anyone else's. Other servers may or may not do the same.

 

But it is NOT your (And by your I don't mean you specifically) place to slander those who wish to develop or use those tools. This includes implications of cheating, at least on this board.

 

On a personal note, I also find the misrepresentation of this as unfair to be misleading; there's nothing unfair about it. It isn't being kept secret, it isn't being kept from anyone, and it specifically does not (And cannot) process data other than from your ownship. It is EXACTLY the sort of tool that a squad should be taking advantage of IMHO, and nothing stops you from making it fair by hosting a LEAVU server for each side, either.

Edited March 31, 2010 by GGTharos

[Kuky]

Well alright, if it is available for all aircraft then that contradicts statements that this "mod" is used because it is realistic feature of the aircraft... basically you can't expect us to think only people flying F-15 will use it, that just doesn't work... so there's the major flaw of it being available as it can be used in any sim for any aircraft and no one can know if somone is using it or not.

 

Anyway, I don't want to start arguing war... just agreeing to disagree

[Maximus]

after reading the thread, I dont think it is consider cheating mods. so I vote yes

 

 

[statement removed at Tomace request.]

 

again, I have nothing to rant against any of squadron or people, just giving a good sample.

 

:cry:

Edited April 1, 2010 by Maximus

[Kuky]

Not good arguments there Maximus and you've missed the point

 

And FYI we at 3Sqn are not using anything other then regular game and Ventrilo comms, and what is this B.E system you're talking about? if you're saying we are using something else other than game itself better get your story right

[Maximus]

I didnt point that you have used mods to use 3 radar, you used ventrilo to call the B.E. position as a team work. I think I have given some general points. I know you dont like it. what can you do about it?

[Kuky]

What's 3 radar?

[Grimes]

The mod is available to all people, all aircraft.

 

To those who know about it and decide to install it. The game doesn't install mods that are on the server. You have to. The player. That was what was successful about LRM, users didn't need to install it, each server could have their own settings for it and all the player did was connect and play.

 

Now with integrity checks the files that are checked must be 100% identical between server and client. So if we wanted to host a server that checks for LUA export to be off we are likely to get a smaller user base, as LUA export is on by default. With multiple servers having multiple different outlooks on multiple different mods you have several combination of what is and isn't allowed online. It doesn't help that you arn't told which file isn't the same, or how to correct it, or which line of code differs. Thus the online experience suffers. So in effect you created a anti-cheat utility that rewards server admins for turning it off to allow more in.

 

 

Edit.

The VOIP argument is fruitless and meant to drive away from the original point. But for the sake of statement. Player communication via text and or hotkey text (Hit a shortcut to say "I need ammo" in a fps") have been gaming norms since Quake. VOIP is an evolution of the same practice. It is a common built in feature on many multiplayer games. It only applies as a counterpoint to the argument in that integrated VOIP has not yet been achieved in Eagles' games. However the supply of VOIP client information is often times advertised by the server itself. If I'm not mistaken the 104th advertise their TeamSpeak server, as do most other squads hosting game servers. Thus players are given the information on how to join it.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Grimes

[Maximus]

ask cali. I assume he meant by calling B.E. position with other 3 sqn flying against me.

[GGTharos]

Yes Kuky, we cannot/should not continue here, but my PM box is open.

[GGTharos]

Not a strong argument. Again, and once more, instead of getting all hot and bothered by it, you can host it, recommend it, and it will become a standard tool; and I'll happily write an installer to make installation super-easy. Download this, double click, boom. You have LEAVU. No mess, no fuss. Uninstalls super-easy from control panel/addremove programs.

 

To those who know about it and decide to install it. The game doesn't install mods that are on the server. You have to. The player. That was what was successful about LRM, users didn't need to install it, each server could have their own settings for it and all the player did was connect and play.

[Kuky]

What if we all decide to use LEAVU, don't we then all need secondary monitor to use it? And how about realism if it's used for any aircraft? Isn't that counter productive?

[GGTharos]

Yes Kuky, much like you need a second monitor to break out your shkval etc in DCS. Although if you don't have one, you can still hook up and provide SA for others.

 

As for it being available for all planes; personally I figure with encouragement and involvement, we can see native versions for all aircraft (all the fighters have a DLink of some form or another) and possibly coupled with LOTATC for some CGI/AWACS action (in particular the CGI/AWACS linking a single target to a particular red bird, as that's how that datalink works to my knowledge), etc etc. There's plenty of options and possibilities in any case.

 

I don't think it's counter-productive at all. I think, personally, it will truly expand squad tactics.

[Grimes]

Not a strong argument. Again, and once more, instead of getting all hot and bothered by it, you can host it, recommend it, and it will become a standard tool; and I'll happily write an installer to make installation super-easy. Download this, double click, boom. You have LEAVU. No mess, no fuss. Uninstalls super-easy from control panel/addremove programs.

 

Lets say the 104th, 3sqn, 51st, 4c, 159th, and any other server can't come to terms on whats checked. They are all slightly different. The server with the least control would have the most players in it. Besides, having to install/uninstall each time you want to join a server would be a pain in the arse and I doubt many would care to do it just to join a server.

 

I'm sorry. I played Counter Strike and TF2. So I'm used to games that have great systems for dealing with server choices. In both games there can be unique mods that run on the server and the vast majority of them automatically download and run when you connect. So rather than being told "you can't connect because you don't have the file" It gives it to you. They are server based scripts, new textures, new models, sound effects, or even slightly different game-modes. Look up "Prop Hunt" on TF2 and you will find a server based mod that anyone who has TF2 can play out of the box when they connect to a server.

 

There is a massive difference from being told you need certain settings to connect and the server applying these settings when you connect.

 

If an installer is so easy make one that works with all servers when you connect.

[Kuky]

Big difference with DCS Shkval and LEAVU is you don't need second monitor to have Shkval screen... it's there already in the sim, LEAVU datalink (and other radar automisation by scripting) is not.

 

Then again about all aircraft having datalink of some form or another, it's all fine if it's part of the sim. Also datalink that works real time (updated every 50ms or so) is again different from in game EWR datalink which updates every radar rotation/scan every few seconds, I just see many wrong ways of LEAVU as it is.

 

It's obvious we won't ever get to agreement about it as you guys want it and that's it, no mater how wrong others feel about it if it's being used online.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Kuky

[RvEYoda]

So rather than being told "you can't connect because you don't have the file" It gives it to you.

 

I have suggested this numerous times in relation to leavu/eri/etc.

Someone with good luagui knowledge could probably integrate this with the ingame

server browser. Unfortunately i have nowhere near that kind of knowledge.

 

The downside is that people can export scripts that read stuff off your harddrive and

send to a host over network socket: the primary reason why export.lua can no longer

be exported automatically/invisibly in fc2.

[RvEYoda]

 

Then again about all aircraft having datalink of some form or another, it's all fine if it's part of the sim. Also datalink that works real time (updated every 50ms or so) is again different from in game EWR datalink which updates every radar rotation/scan every few seconds, I just see many wrong ways of LEAVU as it is.

 

- LEAVU datalink update rate is NOT 50 ms, it is whatever you want it to be.

- Provide me with a source saying that 50 ms is incorrect for RL datalink (for example say "our friend pilot claims...")

- Old school F-16 dlink reconenct at 8s intervals and update faster (prob 1/s or less)

- Leavu doesn't need "reconnect" and update rate is 2-4 times per second with default settings.

- Ingame GCI/EWR/AWACS sees "everything", with Leavu someone has to fly out there and use his radar

 

EWR datalink which updates every radar rotation/scan

 

- Leavu does the same. If you lock a bandit STT you can provide faster updates to your wingmen (since you know more) compared to tracking him 4B 6A RWS

Edited March 31, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

Or how wrong others feel about some people not accepting things.

 

The technical points of how the planes and data-links work are actually moot. These things are transmitted at game speed; ED did some work to sync up what you see and what is exported from own-ship, on the behest of - guess who - Yoda.

 

Fact of the matter is that in-game radars are far more capable than real radars in some cases, and far less in some others, but an export doesn't change this (in FC1 you could 'see' a contact on leavu before it was painted on your screen).

 

@Grimes: Yes, I understand what you are saying. But the fact that such a thing might be detrimental to your server's popularity isn't going to stop me from wanting to use this nor from using it. It is your server and your choice. And if I could write an installer like that, you bet I would.

[PoleCat]

I think the auto slew mod should be allowed. Mountain out of a mole hill IMHO. Great work Yoda!

 

Out

[Kuky]

1. if you say it can be anything you want it to be it means it can also be 50ms (or less) right?

2. The datalink can be as fast as scan of the radar, in case of F-15 radar you know the time for full scan so you know how fast that data should be updated

3. in game EWR does not see everything, what is in range and visual line of sight yes, but this is how it is in real life, AWACS being higher can see behind (not through) hills also (meaning flying low in valey can still get you exposed to it's scan area), and nothing wrong with that

 

You can keep working on it and all respect for the knowledge and work but there are times and places (coops?) for things like that where all agree to use it etc... it just doesn't fit in regular online games. Come on, we were all so eager to get FC2 to get all the exploits and weird things from FC1 thing of past... why get into these scripts again? At least work on it more to have it become part of the sim or at least acceptable for all and cheat/realism proof kinda thing?

Edited March 31, 2010 by Kuky

[RvEYoda]

2. The datalink can be as fast as scan of the radar, in case of F-15 radar you know the time for full scan so you know how fast that data should be updated

 

I don't have to know the time of its scan. Data shred over leavu is _identical_ with what you

see on your own radar. If you got target STT, then leavu shares STT data. If you got target

scan rws, leavu shares scan rws data. scanning 4B 6A RWS yields at best one update every

4 seconds. STT yields at best whatever you set the datalink server to distribute data at.

[RvEYoda]

3. in game EWR does not see everything, what is in range and visual line of sight yes, but this is how it is in real life, AWACS being higher can see behind (not through) hills also (meaning flying low in valey can still get you exposed to it's scan area), and nothing wrong with that

 

Ingame EWR can transmit data updates even if the receiver is covered by a hill. It only does

LOS checks on the actual radar, NOT the datalink. Leavu is the same. Radar is LOS checked,

datalink is not.

Edited March 31, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

1. if you say it can be anything you want it to be it means it can also be 50ms (or less) right?

2. The datalink can be as fast as scan of the radar, in case of F-15 radar you know the time for full scan so you know how fast that data should be updated

 

You have no choice here, the update happens at the speed of the radar scan ie again - what you see and what is exported is synched.

 

3. in game EWR does not see everything, what is in range and visual line of sight yes, but this is how it is in real life, AWACS being higher can see behind some hills also, nothing wrong with that

 

Sorry, not sure where you wanted to go with that, but again, leavu uses stuff from your radar ... it can see anything you see but not more, and of course whatever someone feeds in through the dlink.

 

You can keep working on it and all respect for the knowledge and work but there are times and places (coops?) for things like that where all agree to use it etc... it just doesn't fit in regular online games. Come on, we were all so eager to get FC2 to get all the exploits and weird things from FC1 thing of past... why get into these scripts again? At least work on it more to have it become part of the sim or at least acceptable for all and cheat/realism proof kinda thing?

 

Who do you think worked so hard on dealing with a lot of those exploits? I mean, obviously devs did the coding, Yoda pretty much worked eight hours a day testing, helping, convincing, proving stuff. Frankly the least you can do is try this out in regular online games and see what happens. That really doesn't cost you anything.

 

It really feels like there's just knee-jerking anti-leavu sentiment and it really shouldn't be that way. No one's giving you a push-to-kill button, or 'reveal-all-enemies-on-map' button. Further, you're asking Yoda to make it 'more acceptable', but what the heck does that mean? It is what it is right now, it can evolve, but it isn't going to happen without helpful input, either.

 

I think once you try it out a few times you'll see it isn't exactly the horror that some might want to make it out to be. It's just a tool, and a good one.

[Kuky]

Ingame EWR can transmit data updates even if the receiver is covered by a hill. It only does

LOS checks on the actual radar, NOT the datalink. Leavu is the same. Radar is LOS checked,

datalink is not.

 

ah, right, I get you now

[Kuky]

GG, if it's soo good, well sure it is viewed from one perspective, then why am I not the only one not liking use of LEAVU?

 

Let's say about the radar slew etc, we could get that script to be acceptable by all servers if all agree... I think I could be fine with that, but then I still would like to make sure all use same file with same script and have it checked for integrity so other scripts cannot be used, this would be acceptable to me as then everyone would be on the same page.

[sniffer]

BTW. What is it 'Radar Automization'?

 

J/K - Never used that...