Who in the Lomac Community uses radar Automization?

[3Sqn_TomAce]

Hopefully this is what the commanders round table can discuss and agree on. A community standard (and agreed updates to said standard) will be essential if we are to gain a trouble free online experience for all pilots.

[GGTharos]

GG, if it's soo good, well sure it is viewed from one perspective, then why am I not the only one not liking use of LEAVU?

 

Maybe because it's the same knee-jerk reaction? Maybe because when people get a certain idea they can't let it go? I don't know. Sure, we all think we're right (same for me from the other side, right?), but here's the thing: I know what it's like to fly without LEAVU. Do you know how it is to use it? Have you experienced it enough?

I'm not going to claim everyone will like it, or that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and omfg you suck if you do not use it - I'm just saying, it's not the devil. It isn't going to beat up your relatives or cause you a heart-attack, and it isn't going to make anyone who's using it undefeatable, either. And it is still a great squadron tool.

 

Let's say about the radar slew etc, we could get that script to be acceptable by all servers if all agree... I think I could be fine with that, but then I still would like to make sure all use same file with same script and have it checked for integrity so other scripts cannot be used, this would be acceptable to me as then everyone would be on the same page.

 

Yes, the only problem is that right now this is a bit of an all-or-nothing thing. There's little that can be done about this currently: If you want to restrict any scripts from running, you're basically locking down export.lua, and this means people with any mod whatsoever, even an extra carriage return, cannot play on your server.

If they restore the original, people who may have potentially paid plenty of money to make themselves a cockpit mod with instruments etc cannot use them. And if you let people export instruments, you are allowing LEAVU.

 

But I'll point out once more: LEAVU can only use LOCAL data. It cannot access (nothing can) all objects if the server does not want it to - and by default it is set up not to allow it.

You cannot reveal everyone's location, you cannot record tacview, you cannot use it to get a 'free peak' without having 'eyes' (ie radars) on location and pointed in the right direction.

[Kuky]

But I'll point out once more: LEAVU can only use LOCAL data. It cannot access (nothing can) all objects if the server does not want it to - and by default it is set up not to allow it.

You cannot reveal everyone's location, you cannot record tacview, you cannot use it to get a 'free peak' without having 'eyes' (ie radars) on location and pointed in the right direction.

 

Yeah, we know that, can Yoda make the script for radar auto slew to track target etc and things like that, that can be accepted by the community and to make it part of integrity check on all servers (if the server's want integrity checks) then we could talk about fair gameplay online with mods like that one... that's of course if we all agree

[GGTharos]

That script already exists. You don't have to install the entire package, just the ERI without the leavu export.

[RvEYoda]

All my scripts for fc2 use only instrument data. You can do a search for "LoGetObjectById"

or "LoGetWorldObjects" in all my scripts and you will find zero. The only reason why they

did not do this in fc1 was because in fc1 many of the game's instrument exports were broken/buggy,

so I was forced to use non-local data as a workaround.

Edited March 31, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Case]

That script already exists. You don't have to install the entire package, just the ERI without the leavu export.

Is that the version that gives the estimated range on ECM?

[Frostie]

Auto radar slew, ingenious idea, how it should be in FC2.

 

However the 'ECM range notification' which accompanies this mod, absolute BS, I would love to hear the poor answer for including this. For an F-15 to lock on an ECM strobe from 100nm away and be told that on your radar its 100nm away is absolute tosh. The claim that its an approximate range is a mockery of intelligence.

 

Some things are un-simable with lockon and should be left alone.

[GGTharos]

Yep. There is no version that does not AFAIK.

And 'the poor answer' for including this is that in fact all modern radars are capable of TMA against an angle-only-target. And they're more accurate than what's in ERI. Would you please refrain from calling things poor or BS when you do not actually know what you're talking about?

The MiG radar includes a ranging mode as well, and by extension, the flanker should also. The problem here is that mechanizing this for red birds is really difficult - and in that case, if you asked for it to be removed for fairness, I'd agree.

Edited March 31, 2010 by GGTharos

[Case]

All my scripts for fc2 use only instrument data.

Do these scripts still depend on export.lua to be executed?

[Case]

Yep. There is no version that does not AFAIK.

It should not be hard to make a version that does not have the ECM ranging.

[GGTharos]

This is the only way to run them, AFAIK.

 

Do these scripts still depend on export.lua to be executed?

[RvEYoda]

Do these scripts still depend on export.lua to be executed?

 

Yep, all such scripts have to be inside the export.lua environment.

(exporting data and sending input commands)

[Frostie]

And 'the poor answer' for including this is that in fact all modern radars are capable of TMA against an angle-only-target. And they're more accurate than what's in ERI.

Im not the one trying to create something I don't understand, what is the tolerance limits and maximum effective/limited range of TMA? As it is in Lockon there is no estimation its a high/low value.

[Kuky]

When I was saying little earlier for Yoda to make LUA script I meant to customise only things we all agree to use and have it on all server's and clients and checked for integrity.

 

I too don't believe in ECM raning, not at great range anyway, but then again if you are at closer range you would be in burn-through so I too don't see how this would work in reality, change in geometry of moving aircraft even when sideways in respect to you at 100km is very small and also that change depends on aircraft speed and travel angle in respect to your aircraft and there is no way of your own radar knowing this so I don't see how this estimation can work

[GGTharos]

Im not the one trying to create something I don't understand,

 

Who told you that Yoda or I don't understand it? You're starting to tread down the path of straw men and personal accusation again. Keep them to yourself.

 

what is the tolerance limits and maximum effective/limited range of TMA? As it is in Lockon there is no estimation its a high/low value.

 

As far as you can pick up and track a signal. You fly a particular maneuver, the computer does a bunch of math and poof, you get a range. In order to save on cpu cycles and a lot of math that really doesn't need to be done, the compromise is to not give you an accurate range instead, but you do get a rough estimate. Could a more realistic implementation be done? Probably - is it worth it? Not sure.

 

Having said all this, again I'll point to a previous post. I have nothing against removing it for fairness' sake.

[Frostie]

ECM ranging using TMA is something that can occur over a period of time, at long distances the estimation will be huge.

 

This mod gives an instantaneous range. So in effect rather than being a simulation of the real thing its an arcade addon with unrealistic values and advantages.

[Kuky]

GG, if the aircraft that is jamming is comming straight at you and you make your manouver and the aircraft that's jamming is still comming directly at you there is no change in aspect of the inbound aircraft (or heading of the jamming source) so how can you estimate the range on that?

 

Also like I said if the jamming signal was moving sideways there would be a change of aspect which can be measured in angle only, but since you don't know the range of the signall to begin with and you don't know it's speed you can't estimate the range... this method of estimating you speak of just can't work

[GGTharos]

ECM ranging using TMA is something that can occur over a period of time, at long distances the estimation will be huge.

 

Over a pretty short amount of time.

 

This mod gives an instantaneous range. So in effect rather than being a simulation of the real thing its an arcade addon with unrealistic values and advantages.

 

It trades time for accuracy.

[Frostie]

It trades time for accuracy.

Why is the mod so accurate and instantaneous then, and the big question, how accurate is it in RL?

Figures?

[GGTharos]

GG, if the aircraft that is jamming is comming straight at you and you make your manouver and the aircraft that's jamming is still comming directly at you there is no change in aspect of the inbound aircraft (or heading of the jamming source) so how can you estimate the range on that?

 

Triangulation, Kuky ... I don't know a better way to explain it. You will have to draw it on a piece of paper.

 

Draw two dots. Label both 1 (this represents time). Draw a line between them. Now you (say the bottom dot) move to the side some amount. The other dot, moves down the same amount (for simplicity's sake). So put down two new dots, label them 2. Draw a line between them. Continue as required until you have an estimate. Works for any aspect.

 

Also like I said if the jamming signal was moving sideways there would be a change of aspect which can be measured in angle only, but since you don't know the range of the signall to begin with and you don't know it's speed you can't estimate the range... this method of estimating you speak of just can't work

 

It can and in fact does. You control YOUR speed and YOUR heading, you know YOUR position and you know the angle to the other guy. That's all you need. You get a few data points, and you get a reasonable range estimate.

[Frostie]

Triangulation, Kuky ... I don't know a better way to explain it. You will have to draw it on a piece of paper.

 

Draw two dots. Label both 1 (this represents time). Draw a line between them. Now you (say the bottom dot) move to the side some amount. The other dot, moves down the same amount (for simplicity's sake). So put down two new dots, label them 2. Draw a line between them. Continue as required until you have an estimate. Works for any aspect.

The key components to a good TMA solution is heading and range, if the target is heading away or towards you, your estimations are going to be shot to pieces. Unfortunately with ECM ON neither of these values are avaliable to you.

[Kuky]

Triangulation works from having 2 (or more) sources painting the object giving 3D view of it's position. Without the jamming signal the radar energy is reflected thus giving range and by knowing your altitude and angle of the contact in respect to you you get it's altitude and by change in it's position you get its heading... this is all fine, but when you take out the vital first info... the range... you cannot get the others... and this is what jammers are suposed to do.

 

You cannot triangulate with single radar only, if there were 2 aircraft sharing radar datalink then you could estimate range even on jamming signal. but not with single.

 

If the jaming signal is pointing right at you, even if you change your speed or heading that jamming signal is still not changing aspect in respect to you, and to your radar it will look as stationary.

[RvEYoda]

Triangulation works from having 2 (or more) sources painting the object giving 3D view of it's position. Without the jamming signal the radar energy is reflected thus giving range and by knowing your altitude and angle of the contact in respect to you you get it's altitude and by change in it's position you get its heading... this is all fine, but when you take out the vital first info... the range... you cannot get the others... and this is what jammers are suposed to do.

 

You cannot triangulate with single radar only, if there were 2 aircraft sharing radar datalink then you could estimate range even on jamming signal. but not with single.

 

If the jaming signal is pointing right at you, even if you change your speed or heading that jamming signal is still not changing aspect in respect to you, and to your radar it will look as stationary.

 

Wrong.

You can triangulate with one radar, to keep it VERY simple:

Just take a few snapshot from different posiitons and angles, and make some assumptions about the target,

such as his speed (perhaps 0), and you will get a decent estimate even vs supersonic targets. This is how the

real thing works, just a LOT more advanced.

 

I could implement such a triangulation, but it would probably be so accurate that everybody would think "cheaeeeeeeeeat",

thus I implemented a much weaker variant

[Case]

It can and in fact does. You control YOUR speed and YOUR heading, you know YOUR position and you know the angle to the other guy. That's all you need. You get a few data points, and you get a reasonable range estimate.

I don't think so. There's still the unknowns about his heading and velocity, let alone if they are constant over the time you track him. Sure, you can constrain the velocity somewhere between 500 to 1000 km/h, but that'll give you a factor 2 uncertainty already, and there'll still be a degeneracy between the bandits heading and velocity. Add to that the fact of a bandit flying completely pure on you and there's no distance estimate what so ever.

 

I think this ECM ranging mod should just do this math and get the proper estimate, instead of calling a random number generator and have it jump around the real distance the script gets through the LUA exports. I'd be more than happy to go through the math.

[Frostie]

Wrong.

You can triangulate with one radar.

Just take a few snapshot from different posiitons and angles, and make some assumptions about the target, such as his speed (perhaps 0), and you will get a decent estimate even vs supersonic targets.

To triangulate with one radar takes time and time can make your estimation even greater because like it or not with out range, heading and speed your just taking a shot in the dark.