Using Track IR in FC 2

[shackman]

I've started using TIR in FC 2 and have to say that I like it alot. But I hope I'll get used to it, because in one of the BVR fights against a MIG23 I never saw him launch a missile and got shot down about 4 times. Does it get easier to track things with practice?

[Mugenjin]

I don't think that TrackIR is of any help when you're trying to spot something which is BEYOND visual range (BVR) :P

Just watch your RWR.

[shackman]

But missiles dont appear on the rwr, from what i've seen. i might be wrong, all i did was try to beam it break hard while releasing chaff

 

do you think TIR is of any help at all? I mean missiles wont stay BVR for long til you can visually id them.

[Mugenjin]

By utilizing the radar/rwr you'll roughly know where the enemy is and may see some smoke in the distance. But once the missile goes ballistic, i.e. is not burning anymore, it'll be next to impossible to see the missile.

[Rhinox]

...But once the missile goes ballistic, i.e. is not burning anymore, it'll be next to impossible to see the missile.

 

By "going ballistic" you probably mean inertial drive. Because if a missile goes really ballistics (it exhausted its engine and bleeded energy so much it can not maneuver), you do not need to worry about it anymore. Only if you accidentally fly close enough to trigger its proximity fuse...

 

btw, under certain circumstances you can see missiles with your radar as very fast "planes". Easy with big ones (like kh58 or kh41) but you can detect 27er too if you are on its 3-9 line. I remember one mission where we succesfully defended our radar by taking 3x kh58 down with r27er...

[bengo]

Shack, what type of missile did he use ?

I have yet to spot my first incoming missile. I never see one coming, especially not a BVR-one. Some missiles indeed do not show on rwr, like IR-guided missiles.

So, analyse the results you get shown after each flight, and see what it is that hit you. Better yet, install tacview and get a very good situational 3D-overview of the battlefield, and the battle you're in.

First rule in BVR is : fire first, so the enemy goes defensive to defeat your missile. While he's doing his defensive moves, you can sneek closer to him and finish him off. That means you need to be high and fast to give you first missile that extra punch and reach. If you can't beat him to the first shot, turn and run like hell.

BTW, what aircraft are you flying in this engagement ?

Posting the track might help.

Edited July 12, 2010 by bengo

[shackman]

I was in an Eagle and he was a MIG-23 firing an R-24R

 

Here is a trk of the engagement, I couldn't locate the acmi file?

F-15 vs Mig 23.trk

Edited July 12, 2010 by shackman

[bengo]

Range of that is about 50km, so spotting the lauch is impossible. Were you jamming during this engagement ? Any idea of how close he was when he fired ? You must've seen his radar in the rwr for sure, It is a SARH-missile so the MIG must support it with a lock on your aircraft until it can go autonomous.So you will only get a lock indication from the MIG, and probably will not get a launch warning from the rwr. As soon as the missile is close enough to you it goes autonomous and starts tracking you with it's onboard radar. Probably an "M"-symbol will appear on your rwr. Try to deny the MIG a lock onto you. Real pilots don't always know what the opposing planes are carrying weaponswise, but judging from the rwr-aircraft symbol they will implement a worst case scenario, and they will try and lure him into wasting his missiles in low PoK-shots. And then hunt him down. So here again : knowing your enemy (how many of those R-24's can a MIG23 carry ?) will give you an advantage.

Edited July 12, 2010 by bengo

[shackman]

Range of that is about 50km, so spotting the lauch is impossible. Were you jamming during this engagement ? Any idea of how close he was when he fired ?

I was jamming and probably about 30-40nm away

[bengo]

Please read my last post again, as I've edited it while you already replied to it.

You'll only get an acmi file oafter you've installed tacview.

[shackman]

Please read my last post again, as I've edited it while you already replied to it.

You'll only get an acmi file oafter you've installed tacview.

I already have tacview installed.

[bengo]

Are you looking in the righ place for the acmi ?

 

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php

 

Mine are stored in the tempfolder, where the trackfiles are stored. If you've got W7 or Vista, it might be saved in the virtualstore.

[shackman]

Are you looking in the righ place for the acmi ?

 

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php

 

Mine are stored in the tempfolder, where the trackfiles are stored. If you've got W7 or Vista, it might be saved in the virtualstore.

Yeah I finally found it sorry for the delay,but I can't upload it? It says there are errors

[nomdeplume]

What errors? Too big? You might need to compress it before it uploading it (right-click the file, send to -> compressed folder).

 

Alternatively you could try something like RapidShare or similar.

[shackman]

What errors? Too big? You might need to compress it before it uploading it (right-click the file, send to -> compressed folder).

 

Alternatively you could try something like RapidShare or similar.

Exactly what I thought.

Tacview-20100712-101006.txt.rar

[bengo]

I'm not an expert in this area, but I see you fire two missiles in quick succession in the beginning of the engagement. The first remark is, is that you are not using the best missile for the job. The Slammer C has better tracking capability and range then the B-model. Further more you should leave a bit of time between your shots. By the time the bandit outmanoeuvers the first one, he will have bled considerable amounts of energy, so the second missile will be able to counter his moves more easily. In your track he was able to outfly your two missiles with one maneouvre. The fact that you launched at almost 50 km, means that your missile will have depleated a lot of its maneouvering energy by the time it gets to the target. From the 3600km/h it started out with, it had only approx 1500 km.h left near the target. In fact he only needs an easy 2.7G dive and turn to outturn them. If yoursecond missile would've arrived there say 10 seconds later, he would've still been busy outflying the first missile, and the second missile would have had time to anticipate his moves and fly a different intercept.

You then fire a Slammer C that looks like it didn't track on anything (aka Maddog) About 35 seconds after you launch your first two missiles he shoots his first R-24R to put you on the defense. Fortunately he starts going defensive himself and looses lock on you, so he can't guide his missile towards you and the missile doesn't track you.

After he defeas your shots, the distance between you has shrunk to a mere 24km. He now is lower then you ans so has the advantage to use his radar looking-up, which makes searching, locking and trackin a lot easier for him. In just 30 seconds he closes to 13 km, on you 11 o'clock. Your probably looking for the splash then and he 's probably not on your radar. He should still be on your rwr though. So now he's real close, burning through your jammer, in a perfect position and he fires. You bank right, but you bank right too far, and move him from 30° left to 120° left. You must try and put him on 90°, and go into a steep dive. You will know if his lock breaks when his 23-symbol drops off the rwr.

That's my view of things. I'm sure there's much more capable A-to-A-pilots around to put my wrongs right, and add some more pointers.

So, try again and fire two Slammer C's with 5 to 10 seconds interval and then put the bogey on the radar's gimbals. That means : turn away from the bogey just far enough that his radarsymbol is near the edge of your radarscreen. That way you support your outgoing missile(s) and keep the closure-rate limited.

[shackman]

Is this what you're describing bengo?

 

Question I have is how do you get into a BVR fight and not use all 8 of your missiles against him when launching 2 5 sec apart? that'd expend your ordanance quickly.

Tacview-20100712-121005.txt.rar

[bengo]

Hey, not too bad :thumbup:

I just wonder why your second missile doesn't track the bandit. I see he goes evasive when your first missile is at approx 13 km. So that must mean the missile goes autonomous at 13 km from it's intended target and he gets a warning on the rwr. Just for information : did you go STT on him before you launched ? I think the reason why your second missile doesn't lock on to him is that while he's evading the first missile, he briefly breaks your radar-lock. So the missile cannot be steered towards the target anymore. In this example your left 36 seconds in between the shots. A little too long in my (humble) opinion. Try it with 10 seconds, see how that works. Ideally you want both missiles to track so in case the first missile misses (remember : missile !!!), you have another chance with the second one.

On the quick expending of ordnance : like Pete Bonanni (see links below) said years ago : "it's you against him for all the wine and women in the world". So play it safe rather then sorry. What good is holding on to your missiles when you end up diving towards the ground with fire and smoke pouring from the engines and big parts of your aircraft are missing ?:pilotfly:

 

Below movies are not about BVR, but WVR-combat. Some good info in it though, even if it is about another (long-gone) flightsim :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cQ44gBDSbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmGKLpoVg38&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRn6qNX9hwc&feature=related

Edited July 12, 2010 by bengo

[GGTharos]

Here's my 2c - and note I could not watch the tracks as FC2 is not currently available at my location.

 

I'm not an expert in this area, but I see you fire two missiles in quick succession in the beginning of the engagement. The first remark is, is that you are not using the best missile for the job. The Slammer C has better tracking capability and range then the B-model. Further more you should leave a bit of time between your shots. By the time the bandit outmanoeuvers the first one, he will have bled considerable amounts of energy, so the second missile will be able to counter his moves more easily. In your track he was able to outfly your two missiles with one maneouvre.

 

Ideally, a second missile should not be needed. Since we do not live in an ideal world, be ready for the follow-up just before or shortly after (usually best, IMHO) your first shot misses.

 

The fact that you launched at almost 50 km, means that your missile will have depleated a lot of its maneouvering energy by the time it gets to the target.

 

Depends on altitude and target maneuver. The 120C will happily hunt you down and bite you on a high-medium or high-high launch with that range, but it's better to close to about 20nm (36km) to start with if you're not in a poor position (very, very high ... which means you want to launch very, very far).

 

From the 3600km/h it started out with, it had only approx 1500 km.h left near the target. In fact he only needs an easy 2.7G dive and turn to outturn them. If yoursecond missile would've arrived there say 10 seconds later, he would've still been busy outflying the first missile, and the second missile would have had time to anticipate his moves and fly a different intercept.

 

Not quite right. All missiles in FC2 fly the same intercept: Proportional Navigation. That's all they do. And if it can notch the first missile of a batch, it'll notch the second too, typically.

 

 

You then fire a Slammer C that looks like it didn't track on anything (aka Maddog) About 35 seconds after you launch your first two missiles he shoots his first R-24R to put you on the defense. Fortunately he starts going defensive himself and looses lock on you, so he can't guide his missile towards you and the missile doesn't track you.

After he defeas your shots, the distance between you has shrunk to a mere 24km.

 

Which should not be an issue vs a MiG-23. This is pretty much his Rmax, whereas, depending on altitude, you're likely inside the 120C's Rtr now.

 

 

He now is lower then you ans so has the advantage to use his radar looking-up, which makes searching, locking and trackin a lot easier for him.

 

Not really. It's easier for him 'cause he's a cheatin' AI ;)

In reality (N/A FC2, IIRC) the MiG-23 MUST attack in look-up or co-altitude because it does not have a look-down radar (note: There are some very modernized versions of the MiG-23 that do. It appears our MiG-23 in FC2 got that radar)

 

 

 

In just 30 seconds he closes to 13 km, on you 11 o'clock. Your probably looking for the splash then and he 's probably not on your radar. He should still be on your rwr though. So now he's real close, burning through your jammer, in a perfect position and he fires. You bank right, but you bank right too far, and move him from 30° left to 120° left. You must try and put him on 90°, and go into a steep dive. You will know if his lock breaks when his 23-symbol drops off the rwr.

 

No, you will know when you do it right. The RWR has a several second memory to ensure you will not miss a threat. Relying on the RWR can get you killed in this case - use it to line up the signal correctly, not as an indicator of a good notch. You simply must learn to do it right.

 

That's my view of things. I'm sure there's much more capable A-to-A-pilots around to put my wrongs right, and add some more pointers.

 

I don't think you said anything that was wrong aside for the RWR.

 

So, try again and fire two Slammer C's with 5 to 10 seconds interval and then put the bogey on the radar's gimbals. That means : turn away from the bogey just far enough that his radarsymbol is near the edge of your radarscreen. That way you support your outgoing missile(s) and keep the closure-rate limited.

 

I'd launch one at 20nm, put him on the gimbals, move to a look-up position while holding him on the gimbals, then turn in and re-attack if the first missile misses.

 

You need to know your enemy; against a MiG-23 you don't need Rmax launches, because your weapons far outclass his weapons. Just use your advantages right.

 

One final note ... the AI are hideously capable of notching at Excellent - they are unrealistically good at it in fact. Use them that way for a bit of a challenge, but if you want a bit more realism, take them off of Excellent.

[bengo]

Your 2 cents are worth their weight in gold. Thanks for chiming in. Very interesting post.

 

On the beaming. So doing it right, does that mean putting him on 3 or 9 o'clock and enter a dive ? Just asking to be sure.

Edited July 12, 2010 by bengo

[GGTharos]

Yes. Unless you want to gamble that you know how soon his missile speed will drop, then you can remain at altitude and out-gimbal it on the 3-9 instead of notching.