AI SEAD = fail?

[RipKirby]

I set up my F16/F18s from 200 clicks out. AGM88 range is 148. I have marked an area for SEAD containing 4 radars. AI is set to excellent but completely ignores the radar and afterburns into the danger zone and gets killed. Each plane armed w/ 4 AGM88s. :helpsmilie:

[nomdeplume]

I normally set it up like the shot below, with a targeting waypoint some ways out and then have them turn back before they get into the effective range of the SAM. Might take a bit of experimenting to see how close you can get them.

 

In this screenshot I actually have them head back out of range, and then come back in for another pass. This is because air defense systems often shoot down inbound missiles; this second pass is timed to occur after the initial HARMs have reached their targets (or being shot down), to improve the likelihood of taking out the site.

 

FYI, the target SAM site here is a HAWK and the aircraft are F16C blk 52's with two AGM-88s each. AI only seem to fire one missile at each target though (hence the second pass).

[RipKirby]

Thanks for the answers :)

 

I think the key here is the range: it's ok to attack something that can't shoot back.

 

What About S-300s that has at least double the range of the HARMS? It seems that long range SAMs will always win because the AI SEAD will jettison stores at the first sight of danger and never get close enough to deal damage? The best I have seen against s-300s is a single HARM fired.

 

Any strategies (except for b52 and cruise missiles, they don't work for me either)?

[nomdeplume]

I guess that's more of a tactics thing, i.e. how would you approach it yourself? Since you ruled out cruise missiles and the like, I guess the only option is to try to get within range without the SAM shooting you first, which means using terrain to mask your approach and then hoping to get the first shot off.

 

You could also try setting up individual AI flights rather than multiple aircraft in the same flight. That way they won't cooperate, and each aircraft will launch a missile at each target. Should be able to get more missiles in the air that way, to increase the pK.

 

Could also be worth experimenting with a diversionary flight; i.e. have some fast movers pop up into the radar's LoS and then the actual SEAD flight pops up a few seconds later. Hopefully the SAM will be too busy engaging the first flight to fire at the SEADers until they've gotten their shots off.

 

For the B-52, 'precision strike' task using point targets seems to work fine. I just had a B-52 loose 16 AGM-86's against an encampment, that was pretty cool.

[Grimes]

Due to artificial "intelligence" and if a strike aircraft is fired on, it would be more effective to use triggers to automatically blow up specific sam site installations once the AI reach a certain point on the map. -_-

 

To do it with physical weapons... two things

 

1. Saturation/Backup have at least 2 groups of strike aircraft attack if its a medium/long range sam. If you have 2 groups of a single SEAD aircraft with identical payload, they will attack targets identically. I prefer to use 2 groups of 2, coming from different angles and usually different payloads.

 

2. Bring the big guns. Use aircraft that carry big and fast missiles. Kh-58 and ALARMs are probably the best missiles to use for SEAD.

 

If its a ship. Its all about the angle you are attacking them from. The Russian ships seem to have a deadzone if you attack headon. This will likely prevent the anti missile guns from destroying the target.

 

Long range sam sites are a pain to take out with AI. So have at least 1 aircraft for every launcher it has. Or use multiple medium range sams to cover the same area.

[Speed]

Worst thing about AI SEAD is that the AI coordinates with other flights quite often to make sure that only ONE missile is fired at each radar. So of course, the SAM sites just shoot down the HARMs or Kh-58s one at a time till all the aircraft are out of missiles.

 

To the original poster: make a target point for each SAM site you want the AI to attack, make the radius around the point like only 1km, and give them these same target points starting at a steerpoint like 100km away, and then give them the same points again at a much closer steerpoint, and then again at a steerpoint that is nearly over the SAMs. So basically, the AI aircraft are told to attack the radars starting from a point very far away, and are repeatedly told as they pass closer and closer steerpoints. This has worked pretty well for me.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Speed

[Haukka81]

I really hope that Ed will fix AI's stupid tactic: "jettison weapons if a strike aircraft is fired on"

 

Why this is not fixed yet?

 

 

-haukka81

[RipKirby]

Very good answers, fellas! Thanks a lot. My beard was graying at an alarming rate over it.

[Grimes]

If you can find fun or a heavy interest in it, figuring out how the AI "thinks" is a rather interesting trial and error process. You get to learn what weapons they are effective with (fire and forget) and what tactics they tend to employ in certain combat operations. Also you learn that if you want them to drop cluster bombs in a really awesome way over a convoy, you pretty much have to do it point to point and hope the convoy is there.

[RipKirby]

That bad, huh? :)

 

It is really interesting and for now, I'm happy with nanomanaging everything but for every single mission it might just get old. It is, however, very sweet when it works.

 

I wish we could make some sort of template for waypoints. The ME mods is making it easier just strange that core functionality has to be modded to be tolerable usability wise.

[RipKirby]

Anyone want to share some more tips in regards to AI scripting?

[RipKirby]

2. Bring the big guns. Use aircraft that carry big and fast missiles. Kh-58 and ALARMs are probably the best missiles to use for SEAD.

 

I just tried throwing three flights of two Tornadoes at a SAM site.

 

I have no words for how poor the AI is.

[RipKirby]

lmao!

 

I just saw a Harrier eject 4 crew :)

[71st_Mastiff]

thats really wired because in LOMAC, FC1 SEAD for AI works good.

[RipKirby]

Doesn't work with ground attack either. There's no use having long range SAMs in missions. I look forward to the finished product. It's a really nice beta, though.

[Grimes]

, I'm happy with nanomanaging everything but for every single mission it might just get old.

 

That about sums it up and is the reason I haven't put much time or effort into making new missions. The mere thought of having to start from scratch kinda puts me off to the whole process. Remaking/creating mission specific triggers is as much a pain as placing the AI and getting them to do what they are supposed to do.

 

Tips.

 

If you want one side to succeed in an a2g capacity give them Fire and forget missiles.

If you want one side to succeed in an armor battle, give that side more TOW/wire guided missiles.

For A2A give the side you want to win more active missiles or greater numbers

[RipKirby]

thanks for the tips, Grimes

[Ripcord]

What about setting/adjusting the skill levels of the AI pilots? How much does that really effect the outcome?

 

Ripcord

[Grimes]

Ugh, now I had to test this...

 

Test Setup.

Threat: BUK site. 1 BUK Search Radar, 3, BUK launchers.

Attacker: 1 British Tornado armed with 4 ALARM missiles.

 

At all 4 skill levels Tornado attacked at approximate same range everytime. Around 31 km

 

They usually fire 3 missiles off in the first run, extend, and then fire their last missile.

 

Skill settings usually effect time between weapons deployment. On Excellent each missile was fired roughly 6 seconds apart whereas on average setting it took 11-14 seconds between each shot. Furthermore the average skill setting got close enough to be fired on by the BUK, thus it dropped its fuel tanks and last remaining ALARM because it got scared.

 

I like to use Random alot for skill settings. To be honest I'm not even sure if if it just randomly selects the skill level at the start of the mission or if it randomly selects behavior between each shot. As far as I can tell all of the skills are static in their behavior, the AI will never get tired and diminish in skill over time. I suppose thats why I like to use Random, because some units should be smarter, while others ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.

[Ripcord]

Grimes,

 

A couple questions on your test -- did you use the SEAD command for the tornado flight, or did you bomb/pinpoint target?

 

Also, what target did they fire at? Did they target the radar only? Or did they fire at the launchers as well? I have heard that US jets with AGn-88 HARM will fire at SAM radars but not launchers -- is this the case?

 

Ripcord

Edited December 19, 2010 by Ripcord

[Moa]

AGM-88 HARM targets radar emissions only (although it has 'memory' an inertial guidance if an emitter turns off). That means SAM radars and combined radar+launchers (eg. SA-15 Tor) but not launchers only (eg S-6 or SA-10 launcher). nb. SA-11 Buk has combined radar and launcher, so should be targeted.

[Ripcord]

Well, I am happy to believe that, Moa. Still a little strange though -- I just set up mission with FA-18C flying SEAD with AGM-88 and AGM-65, pretty much just like the block 52 F-16s I had been testing in my other mission. The F-16s would fire Mav's at the SA-15 but not the HARMs. However the Hornets would fire both. Ran them in at same altitude. Must be something else.

 

Ripcord

[EtherealN]

Ripcord, unable to reproduce. My F-16's happily fire Mavs and/or HARMs at my SA-15's. F/A-18C does exactly the same as the F-16. (In fact, both planes died at the same place, managed to kill the same one of the four SA-15's I had in the target area, and fired their weapons in the same order and at the same ranges - Mav, Mav, HARM, HARM.)

[Moa]

Well, I am happy to believe that, Moa. Still a little strange though -- I just set up mission with FA-18C flying SEAD with AGM-88 and AGM-65, pretty much just like the block 52 F-16s I had been testing in my other mission. The F-16s would fire Mav's at the SA-15 but not the HARMs. However the Hornets would fire both. Ran them in at same altitude. Must be something else.

 

Ripcord

 

One of the files (somewhere in scripts/database I think) lists what pods must be carried to use what missiles. I tried adding the correct pods to a player-flyable EFA (Extra Flyable Aircraft) mod BAE Harrier to be able to use ALARMS but it didn't work (despite having the correct pods loaded), but I think if you have the correct pods on the correct aircraft that AI may be able to use them. Perhaps you should try altering the F-16s pod loadout and see if that gets the HARMs to go.

 

@Ethereal: It is a shame that Mavericks are used before HARMS since the latter has a vastly better range - thanks for reporting your observation.

 

Edit: With regard to AI you can see some of the sequencing in Scripts/AI/Tasks/ but you can only get so far as these seem to call functions that are compiled in (C++) libraries I think.

 

Edit 2: Scripts/Database/db_weapons.lua lists weapons and whether something is required to use them. For example, the AGM-88C has

Required = {

req_launcher("{8C3F26A2-FA0F-11d5-9190-00A0249B6F00}", "ECM Pod"),

},

 

Perhaps it is worth loading that F-16 up with pods and seeing if that makes any difference.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Moa

[EtherealN]

The selected launch sequence depends on the target, and the range to target from the waypoint that has the attack command. Switching my target site to a KUB, and moving the aggressing plane further out together with it's attack WP causes it to launch the AGM-88's as the first weapon.

 

Keeping the aggressing plane on the same ingress, but switching back to SA-15, the aggressing plane will continue closer in (since the range profile of the threat is different) and it will again launch Mavs first. Do note however that the mavericks are a LOT slower than the AGM-88's, meaning that even though the AGM-88's are launched perhaps even 20 seconds after the first Mav, they will be the "first threat" to the target site.

 

Launching the slower missile this way ends up giving a much higher saturation for the target site to defeat, and is a tactic I used a lot in my Frog days. (Basically, instead of having four single attacks to defeat, you have one quadruple attack, but achieving this with a payload of 2xAGM-65D and 2xAGM-88 does require that the 65's be launched first.)

Edited December 20, 2010 by EtherealN