Medicinal herbs across entire European Union will be banned 1-Apr-2011 - no joke

[Jg2001_Rasputin]

It IS fair to let people have the choice! It is unfair to take it away from them! In some countries there are LICENSED natural healers, in Germany called “Heilpraktiker” (“healing practitioners”) who DO know what works and can cure effectively. They now will have their remedies taken away from them and many will have to give up their jobs. Democracy is to let people have the choice to go to a physician who practices chemical medicine or a “Heilpraktiker” who practices natural medicine. And don’t say that the latter are not doing a good job! If they didn’t, they would have disappeared from the “market” long ago.

allesok: you are German? Then please read the Link I posted 3 posts before yours. :music_whistling:

[Lixma 06]

Fun fact: a really nasty case of the flu will usually take a whole 2 weeks to go away by itself, but with some herbs you can shorten that down to just 14 days. :D

 

:)

 

I'm having some homeopathic coffee right now. Looks just like water but apparently it's a thousand times stronger than regular coffee. I should still be awake in March....

 

For anyone who doesn't realise how childish homeopathy actually is....

 

http://www.1023.org.uk/

 

EDIT: Yippeeee.....my Glaxo-Smith-Kline cheque just came through the post!!

[Geskes]

My previous job as financial analyst was at a company HQ in which has quite a big division in specialised and regular medical products for babies which is active all over the world. They also make a lot of 'healthy' food for both young and old.

 

All pharmaceuticals are involved in pricing agreements (this is not the case in every country btw) whereby the price of very cheap products is inflated to make them elegible for health insurance. This is done trough a clever system of transfer pricing. I know this because my position was offically transfer & cost pricing officer :D

Price agreements are common all around but in medical world it is different because increased price has less effect on demand. Costs are incurred by insurance companies and not by consumers directly. If you need a certain medical item, you won't say nah its too expensive never mind. You probably wont even see the bill, the only thing you can notice is increasing insurance premium. In fact for many low-cost medical items higher price increases demand because in many countries there is a minimum price for which a claim can be made at the insurer. So if you increase your price so customers can claim it at their insurance all of the sudden it is free and therefor you increase demand.

 

My counterpart in Greece for example had a USB stick which he took home everyday into a safe under his bed with all the prices on it. No one had access to his prices but him and only trough him. If I wanted to discuss prices with Italy I had to say it was about the daily price of fresh orange juice. None of it could be discussed in plain language in emails. For other countries we received invoices for marketing activities which we never did but it was to compensate for the ridiculously inflated prices they had to pay. I am talking the 500-1000% range here. Its all incurred by the insurance companies of the clients in the end. :D

 

I had many a conversation with the tax director about why this situation is there and why we joined in it and she simply said that you cannot not participate. If you pull out of the agreement everybody else will try to break you. They make lots and lots of money with this.

 

It also went wrong sometimes, for example in germany where we got a fine for a little over 12 million, in this case because we were extracting all the profits from germany as to pay reduced taxes in another country (this happened for all countries). The point is they dont care. They just see it as a calculated risk. Even the fine can be deducted from taxes. In the US we settled a class action law suit where we refunded all expenses made on certain products over the past 7 years because it had false claims. (Well we didnt admit that, we settled). It was about 25 million euro amount IIRC. Peanuts.

 

Also when the new regulations for the EU came, ALL the healthclaims on the regular products (so your average yoghurt with a twist) had to be withdrawn. They then submitted new claims which were all rejected. The situation is the same for all those 'healthy' food companies.

 

I want to say two things with this:

 

1. The pharmaceutical business has plenty of dirty business involved in it, like any other sector. I think the pharmaceuticals are certainly not one of the nicest kids in class.

2. The EU regulations have a positive effect, namely preventing all kinds of companies be it big or small making claims that are not true. Not only smalltime herbalists are hit by this but also multinational food and medical companies producing en masse products with claims that are not provable.

[26-J39]

Our beloved 7 Worst Drug Companies 2010 - http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-business/the-7-worst-drug-companies-of-2010/6909?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

This year was a cracker for pharmaceutical management incompetence. Investigations? Recalls? Management churn? Making pills the wrong size? Not making pills at all? These Christmas turkeys are all that and a bag of test tubes. In ascending order of incompetence, BNET presents the seven worst drug companies of 2010. Remember, it’s an honor just to be nominated. Drumroll, please …

 

7. Mannkind (MNKD) The FDA was set to vote on Dec. 29 on an approval for its inhaled insulin product Afrezza when — just at the wrong moment — it was sued by its former chief regulatory affairs officer alleging “unlawful” clinical trial data practices. D’oh! The company has been sued before by a former vp of medical/regulatory affairs alleging something similar and the company failed again, in a years-long search, to find a a Big Pharma marketing partner on the drug. If the FDA says yes on Dec. 29, we’ll all owe Mannkind an apology.

 

 

6. Elan (ELN) Elan began the year with every reason to believe that it was on the upswing: It had just closed a $1.4 billion deal with Johnson & Johnson for its Alzheimer’s drugs. Then it emerged that the deal contained an undisclosed poison pill, one of many that the company has ingested in order to insulate itself from the hostile takeovers.

Its management were exposed as being riddled with conflicts of interest. It ended the year by giving back every penny it had ever made on its seizure drug Zonegran, due to illegal marketing. The company was No.4 on last year’s chart.

 

 

5. Generex (GNBT) Generex really blotted its copybook this year by suing TheStreet.com biotech reporter Adam Feuerstein for defamation. This only drew attention to Feuerstein’s articles about the company, which he alleged was “a 15 year-long stock promotion scheme.” Generex claims its Oral-lyn oral insulin spray is approved in Ecuador, India, Lebanon and Algeria, but the company doesn’t book those revenues. Not to worry, it does sell Baboom! “energy spray” with the tagline “Let’s get this party started,” and it’s funded by South American gold mine investors.

 

 

4. AVI BioPharma (AVII) Chronically unprofitable AVI has had three — count ‘em! — CEOs this year. In chronological order: Leslie Hudson, J. David Boyle II, and Chris Garabedian. The turmoil followed a shareholder revolt that forced the ouster of Hudson. Investors have much to revolt over. As Xconomy described it:

AVI … is one of the oldest companies in biotech, having sputtered around since 1980 without ever developing an FDA-approved drug, burning through more than $250 million in investor cash at last count, and never becoming profitable.

3. RanbaxyThe Indian generic maker lost its title as Earth’s worst drug company last year but stays on the chart for 2010 due to its continued comical performance. Its CEO quit without notice in August to go run a newspaper. Two other senior executives may or may not have hit the ejector button in November. (A mystery that’s still unsolved.)

Executive musical chairs aside, the company saw an antidepressant and a cholesterol drug recalled in Europe. The company remains under an FDA ban of 30 of its products following a faked data scandal.

 

 

2. KV Pharmaceutical (KVa.N) KV Pharma began the year by announcing it would pay $27.6 million in fines after pleading guilty to criminal charges for not disclosing in 2008 that its was making its generic pills too big. The company then said it couldn’t pay its fines on time.

The company expected to resume shipping normal size pills in Q4 2010, but that didn’t happen. Instead, it took on a $120 million loan at a whopping 16.5 percent interest.

 

 

1. Johnson & Johnson (JNJ) It’s tough to screw up a drug as basic as Tylenol, a brand that famously survived a cyanide saboteur 30 years ago. But CEO William Weldon managed it. With 11 recalls of the painkiller and other non-prescription drugs, Weldon’s team has inflicted more damage on Tylenol and the McNeil Consumer Healthcare unit that makes it than the Chicago murders of 1982 ever did, despite allegedly being warned of problems at the factory in 2007. (Remember Tylenol was back on the market within a year of the cyanide crisis.)

Currently, J&J is in such disarray it can’t even make tampons properly.

 

 

You trust these companies with your children? :doh:

[allesok]

So if that is what you want, let us do it properly!

 

Ban tobacco and all tobacco products. They are nothing but harmful, not only for the user but also for the environment of a smoker.

Ban all alcohol products. Alcohol is poisonous and often derived from natural products, and such products are basically suspicious. Especially ban beer and wine, since they contain even more natural ingredients.

Ban all fruit juices, since they are derived from basically suspicious natural products and contain potentially harmful vitamins and minerals. Allow only Coke and other drinks, which are safe, since they contain enough chemical additives.

 

Of course, such a product (except tobacco) can be approved if passed through a proper approval procedure. This cannot be done globally, since then some individual producers could deviate from the regulations. To be safe, it must be done separately for each individual product. The majority of the producers will give up and quit because of the high approval cost they cannot afford, but some will remain and have their products approved, but at prices for their products at least the threefold of what they are now in order to recover the high expenses for approval. If you want to feel “safe”, you’ll have to pay!

 

For the psychological health of the population, all computer games have to be banned, which exhibit violence (knives, guns, bombs, fists, fights, torture, killings…) and nudity (more than 20% skin exposed; burka is good!). The same for movies and videos.

 

So what should be done with all the money from these expensive approval procedures? Lower taxes? Surely not! Better build and run working camps for the masses of people who loose their jobs, because they used to work in production, distribution and selling of natural products, or grow or gather the raw material for them. FEMA camps will be useful, since many of them are already built. This will secure a cheap and unpaid slave working force at the service of governments, society and accepted business.

Edited January 11, 2011 by allesok

[GGTharos]

Neither tobacco nor medicinal products are being marketed as medicine for anything. You're out of context, making silly arguments now.

 

You have failed to understand what this 'ban' actually is. If you can clinically prove that a certain herb helps with this or that, you can market it as a medicine/cure. If you cannot prove this, then you cannot.

[X-man]

So if that is what you want, let us do it properly!

 

...

Like GG said, none of those products you mention are being marketed as medicine/ having healing effect. In fact, all those products are being marketed for what they are.

 

You just failed at doing it "properly" :doh:

[allesok]

@winz (and Jg2001 Rasputin)

34 years ago I was saved from becoming a dialysis patient by a homeopathic physician (a “real” physician, who had “converted” to homeopathy). I used to work in dialysis, so that I really know what I am talking about. My kidney disease was completely cured, using only homeopathics, in just a few months and since never returned.

 

6 years ago I had atrial fibrillation, which was converted in the clinic with chemical medicaments: Cordarone infusion, but that remedy has since been banned as unsafe by the FDA… Some time later I went to Germany to consult a “Heilpraktiker” who with herbal remedies had me so fast and well recovered that my cardiologist was surprised (I didn’t tell him what I had done, but just went to him for a check-ups required by the health insurance). I must admit that I first tried with another “Heilpraktiker”, who found that I could not trust, but then I found the right one. As there are good and bad physicians, there are also good and bad “Heilpraktiker”…

 

There are quite a few persons who, besides the consultation of a “real” physician (for control and as required by the health insurance), also more or less secretly consult a “Heilpraktiker” and surprise their physicians with unusually good recoveries… The combination makes natural medicine to rather complementary medicine than alternative medicine and is the ideal solution for very many.

 

 

[GGTharos]

Er, can you present a study? I don't particularly care for anecdotes.

[allesok]

@GGTharos and X-man

It seems to me that this thread is about banning herbs, isn’t it?

Isn’t tobacco a herb? Aren’t, for example, ingredients in beer, wine and fruit juices herbal (derived from plants)?

[GGTharos]

I think you don't know what you're talking about, actually ... I suggest you check what it is you want to argue, because it sounds like - bah, I'm repeating myself - you don't know what you're talking about.

 

It is about banning the representation of herbs as MEDICINE until they are proven to have medicinal value in a clinical study.

[X-man]

@GGTharos and X-man

It seems to me that this thread is about banning herbs, isn’t it?

Isn’t tobacco a herb? Aren’t, for example, ingredients in beer, wine and fruit juices herbal (derived from plants)?

No, the thread title says mentions only medicinal herbs. This title is in itself misleading as the EU directive is not about banning any herbs.

[EtherealN]

It is about banning the representation of herbs as MEDICINE until they are proven to have medicinal value in a clinical study.

 

And incidentally, this is actually pretty common. The thing of course is that the actual active ingredients are then isolated and produced. Morphine for example - an opiate that was developed through identifying the active ingredients in some reputable plants and finding out how to make something that does the same thing. Morphine and many other drugs are "herbal" in the sense that they were discovered through work on plants.

 

But since there's no point in having pollutants and other things that just plain don't do anything, they don't use the actual herb. They use the active ingredient that has the desired effect. Obviously as well, most herbs have many active ingredients, and if you only want one of them (which is usually the case) - why take all of them? And all of them in unknown quantities?

 

But that's the SCIENCE. The so-called herbal medicines don't do much of this testing, they rely on tradition. The chinese used X for Y amount of years to treat Z - therefore it must work! Ity really must!

 

...except not really.

 

So requiring herbs sold for medicinal purposes to undergo the same scrutiny as real medicine is nothing strange, and it is not "banning" them. Except, it appears the proponents know that it effectively does ban those herbs - since there's no real evidence to back up their claims. Again: how many of these Heilpraktikers and such have ever logged onto PubMed? They don't need to - they have ancient wisdom from pre-technological civilizations to rely on. :P

[allesok]

As I have pointed out several times here, this means that herbal use in medicine is effectively banned, since the cost for approval is, on purpose, so very high that smaller manufacturers cannot afford them and, therefore, will have to give up.

This is the trick! Getting rid of competition, take a monopolistic control of the market, banning through the back door under a misleading name.

Strange that this is so hard to understand!!!!

[GGTharos]

There's no trick. If it is prohibitively expensive (it often is not), then they can band together to commision the necessary studies by independent groups. They could even offer a grant to a university here and there and SOMEONE would take it up.

 

Their biggest risk is that it will be shown in a time consuming, long-running study that their herbs do diddly squat and they will be unable to continue being charlatans.

[EtherealN]

Actually, there's a US government body (I think the name of it was National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine - NCAM) doing funding of studies in this area. If getting studies is too expensive you apply for a grant. And such grants are often granted, as well.

 

...the problem is that when the studies are published, the results end up negative. There's nothing there. (Except when they do things like that acupuncture study that was mentioned and interpret the placebo effect as actual effect for the studied modality, at which point people laugh at them for not knowing one of the most basic things there is to know in medicine.)

 

That getting studies done is too expensive is just plain wrong. The same governments that require medicines to have actual scientific backing actually stand ready (and have for the major part of the last century...) to fund said studies!

 

Saying it's too expensive means only one thing: you never tried, or you did try and got a negative result and don't like it.

[allesok]

Of course it is a trick!

After the first step of this regulation came into effect in Germany in July 2003, many good and effective remedies disappeared from the market, simply because the manufacturer couldn't afford the approval.

 

In one case I know about, the manufacturer did go through the process and had to pay around EUR 120 000.-! For ONE product. Do you really think that such smaller companies can afford go through this for each and every product?

 

The dirty trick is to make them give it up because they cannot pay for the approval! If the costs would be REASONABLE, it would be a very different thing. But they definitely are not, and that is made to be so ON PURPOSE. That purpose...

 

It isn't just a matter of risking that the remedy wouldn't be approved. You will have to pay all the costs even if at the end you don't get the approval. And they who judge the application try all they can to deny the approval, SIMPLY BECAUSE EFFECTIVE HERBAL REMEDIES ARE NOT WANTED!

Edited January 11, 2011 by allesok

[GGTharos]

Do you have any clue whatsoever what those 'small manufacturers' make in profit, or how much of their stuff gets sold through email spam?

 

Who's tricking whom?

 

As for the gov't denying approval because 'it is not wanted' ... BS. Sorry for you, but I know people personally who are involved in such approval programs. Herbal stuff isn't treated any different than big Pharma stuff. The difference in on the other side, where 'big pharma' has to pay big money while herbal manufacturers wan't to be able to sell with the same medicinal claims but no studies or approval because 'wah wah wah'.

[EtherealN]

many good and effective remedies disappeared from the market

 

Link me the comprehensive trials and studies that proves efficacy of said products that apparently disappeared.

 

Oh, there is none? Then of COURSE they disappeared! They're making unproven health claims - which, legally and ethically, is fraudulent. Anecdotes are not evidence.

 

In one case I know about, the manufacturer did go through the process and had to pay around EUR 120 000.-! For ONE product. Do you really think that such smaller companies can afford go through this for each and every product?

 

Reference? Or is this yet another of those stories that just get repeated in the alternative medicine crowd because it has to be true, since it fits the ideology?

 

Btw, the machinery you need to conduct safe and controlled production of medical products costs WAY more than that, which means that if they couldn't spend that money (I'd still like a source for the cost and approval proceedures, since I've actually been hearing that story with varying figures for the better part of 20 years!) then they were unable of safe production anyhow.

 

Unless, of course, you feel it's perfectly allright to sell so-called medical products with unknown and wildly variable concentrations of active ingredient? Because as mentioned: for "herbs" the amount of active ingredient by volume even in the same product - even in the same physical plant - is variable by many orders of magnitude, and the same goes for the pollutants (that is, active substances other than the desired one).

 

And yeah - unsafe production should be kept away.

 

The dirty trick is to make them give it up because they cannot pay for the approval! If the costs would be REASONABLE, it would be a very different thing. But they definitely are not, and that is made to be so ON PURPOSE. That purpose...

 

Actually, the prices - even as quoted by you - are "reasonable". In fact, they're downright dirty cheap. You are basically paying for independent people to spend THEIR time checking that your product works as advertised, is safe, and has a proper production proceedure to guarantee that safety. And 120k euro is very very little money as far as that goes and I would expect the controlling authorities to still make a "loss" and have to rely mainly on tax funding.

 

Still that old caveat tho: some info on where you got that number from? More than anecdotes, please. ;)

 

It isn't just a matter of risking that the remedy wouldn't be approved. You will have to pay all the costs even if at the end you don't get the approval. And they who judge the application try all they can to deny the approval, SIMPLY BECAUSE EFFECTIVE HERBAL REMEDIES ARE NOT WANTED!

 

Of course you still have to pay for the proceedure even if you don't get approved! If you submitted some crap product that doesn't do anything, would it be fair if the taxpayer has to pick up the bill? No way.

 

Also, here's something you've missed, and I'll copy it, use caps, but correct it for you:

And they who judge the application try all they can to deny the approval, SIMPLY BECAUSE THAT IS HOW SCIENCE WORKS!

 

I mean, seriously, this is nothing out of the ordinary. Pretty much ALL solid science, in the medical field, astronomy, cosmology, physics, biology, paleontology, and so on is built on the principle that you are experimentally competing with the null hypothesis: that's science talk for - "you should always assume you are wrong, and when you try to publish your work will have to be approved by your biggest competitor."

 

Everyone else somehow still manages to work through this proceedure, and the effect of it is called "modern civilization", "the information age" and such things. Why can't you?

 

Why is it so horrible to be put to the same standard as everyone else?

 

Let's put up something that's seriously unfair: I actually (for real) have an awesome idea for a little custom kit car that would be cool as heck to build. Thing is, I can't afford to get it approved, since any and all commercial sale of automobiles require that the automobile be tested for safety - and that costs money. And you know what: it costs money even if it gets rejected. And trust me - it costs WAY more than the 120k euro figure you quoted.

 

Now, is this a great conspiracy from Big Auto to keep mom'n'pop's like me out of their playground? Hell no. It's government trying to ensure the safety of it's people.

[26-J39]

:bored: So.. with our scientific studies and reports why is Aldara freely available?

http://aldara1.com/

 

Excerpt:

3M is the manufacturer, Graceway is the drug pusher, so, your physician is your only salvation and defense standing between you and permanent, devastating life long injuries and they are failing us all at astronomical rates every day of the year all around this globe. The FDA is admittedly completely impotent in this matter. 3M is interested in one thing, promoting more sales and market share thus more injuries. Graceway is trying to stay alive as their own corporation remains in questionable financial and operating problems.

 

Bottom line, I think you will continue to see all of these entities modify the technical parameters of their products containing imiquimod just enough to create another new product and receive additional long term patent protection for their respective markets. The FDA will turn their heads on this issue as usual even in the face of all the mounting data we the injured victims are unfortunately generating at the expense of our livelihoods and health.

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[EtherealN]

"Freely available"? It's a prescription drug... (i.e- heavily regulated.)

 

Lots of drugs will kill you if not used properly, just like is the case for almost any bioactive substance - for example most vitamins. Vitamin A can for example cause birth defects, as well as neurological conditions that if untreated can make you blind. The various B-vitamins can cause varying types of fun - from liver damage to nerve damage. There's also some really nasty overdose effects that can do fun things like melt your muscle mass - a very painful way to die.

 

Another example is chelating agents used in chelation therapy. This is something that the anti-vax crowd loves to do, but the fact is that this is an extremely dangerous procedure. Used only when it is the lesser evil - ie in cases of acute heavy metal poisoning. (And btw, on the vax thing - the thymerosol contained less Mercury than a regular meal of any fish food, so Chelating someone for that should be a criminal offense for the practitioner, with jailtime and barring any future practice as appropriate punishment.)

 

Anything that has any effect in the body can be overdosed, often with nasty results. That's why you use science to figure out when and why to use something. A normal and healthy person will not need anything extra added to their diet (possible exception being pregnant women, where taking Iron pills is a good idea), and anything that is good in one situation can be lethal in another.

Edited January 12, 2011 by EtherealN

[GGTharos]

I don't know what the conclusions were to the lawsuits etc, but it doesn't matter, and here's why:

 

Abuse does happen. It doesn't matter which scientific or non-scientific sector you go into, it happens. It needs to be detected, rooted out, and punished. That's all there is to that.

 

It still isn't an excuse to call some herb medicine without applying the standard to it ;)

 

:bored: So.. with our scientific studies and reports why is Aldara freely available?

http://aldara1.com/

Edited January 12, 2011 by GGTharos

[Lixma 06]

 

Let's Google Dr Michael Tait, Fountain of Life Clinic, Arundel, Queensland, Australia shall we.....?

 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/soccer-legends-doctor-faces-inquiry/story-e6frg6o6-1111115897587

 

Ooops!

 

Dr Tait is now facing disciplinary action by the Medical Board of Queensland over his unconventional treatment of nearly 150 mostly terminally ill cancer sufferers

Dr Tait - who in 2006 pleaded guilty to nine counts of obtaining and selling a restricted drug, human growth hormone - is facing possible deregistration over his conviction and treatments, involving Mexican drugs which medical authorities previously warned lacked scientific backing on their effectiveness in treating cancer.

Dr Tait - who until 2002 owned an anti-ageing clinic (!) - said he was unaware of the referral notice for disciplinary action filed in Queensland's Health Practitioners Tribunal last week.

In May last year, Dr Tait was slapped with restrictions on his medical registration that banned him from using many of his cancer treatments.

Just another bottom-feeding quack preying on the sick and vulnerable.

[allesok]

Now here is another thing that is tightly tied to the medical herb ban, because – as I have explained – it is EFFECTIVELY a ban, even though it is design to not look like one.

 

It is CODEX ALIMENTARIUS. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKKxtyuzL-s and http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/

 

Two guys failed to make themselves funny above over my suggestion that tobacco, beer, wine etc. should also be banned. This, of course, was a suggestion ad absurdum… just to show how ridiculous it may get.

 

But that is exactly what is going to come along with that effective ban, and it has become in effect December 31, 2010! It will with time, and that may take months or even a year or two, also concern beer, wine and fruit juices…

 

Codex Alimentarius is not really separate from medical regulations on natural products, they are actually two sides of the same coin, since the one serves the other, and that very well.

 

Are you, by the way, aware of the fact that SPICES like rosemary, sage, saffron, thyme, basil, cinnamon and many other have actually already become forbidden according to that codex? Not in the first place because they are also medical herbs, but because they are food! Forbidden food…

 

Another regulation that is being planned is to forbid growing vegetables in you own garden. You should eat the genetically modified junk that will at the end become our only choice.

 

This is how the NWO and the Zionists and the Masons are striving to control our HEALTH! Because with this codex, the health of the population will degrade massively with time and that gives the Big Pharma masses of new clients! Big Pharma and companies like Monsanto work hand in hand to achieve this. You become directly dependent on them for health and survival. Furthermore, the poor will die from malnutrition and then we get rid of them… And those, who can afford it, will not be given medicaments that cure, but medicaments that make them DEPENDENT, since they merely suppress symptoms and you have to consume them as long as you live. That is called market strategy! And those who cannot afford them will with time die away, so we get rid of them… We are already too many, anyway, on this planet to support what is they call “useless eaters”…

 

Furthermore, drugs are being developed that will control our MINDS! To make us complacent zombies without any real own will, who do all they tell us. Even drugs that manipulate our memory! See http://www.naturalnews.com/030493_memories_PTSD.html... (If they allow us to use herbal medicine, they cannot reach almost everyone with that...)

DO READ resp. VIEW THE LINKS AND THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND!

 

 

Edited January 12, 2011 by allesok

[GGTharos]

Ok, so, about those chemtrails and waketrails ...