LOMAC - Problem with pitch controls

[BattleAxes Skinner]

I have been racking my brains, shouting all over tech support interfaces with this stupidly nagging problem, to no avail.

 

I recently bought LOMAC & have been infuriated by the stupid pitch controls, which make the game not playable at all. I tried the Altitude Hold (H Key) thing, but that doesnt help.

 

I play with a keyboard, & the problem is that if i pitch up or down using the arrow keys, upon releasing the key the aircraft does not remain in a neutral position, but the ascend/descend rate keeps increasing/decreasing.

 

What do i do?

[Udat]

Shortly put: Apply opposite pitch to kill the ascention/descention rate.

 

ORRRRRRRRRRRR: get a joystick :)

 

Seriously, get a joystick, even if it's a used and old one.

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Shortly put: Apply opposite pitch to kill the ascention/descention rate.

 

ORRRRRRRRRRRR: get a joystick :)

 

Seriously, get a joystick, even if it's a used and old one.

Udat, if i apply opposite pitch, the aircraft starts porpoising & becomes un-controllable... have been playing sims since quite sometime now & these basic things we take it as being a given.

 

i dont understand... how will a joystick help in this case?

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Is there a patch released to fix this? If yes, where can i download it from?

[FLANKERATOR]

This is not an issue, it is correctly modeled. Actually it's quite simple, the joystick goes back to neutral position automatically therefore stopping/reducing inputs upon releasing/unloading. That is why it's a must have.

Edited March 2, 2011 by FLANKERATOR

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Flankerator, intuitively doesn't the same logic apply to a keyboard up/down key being released???

 

The rolls are perfect... you can see the virtual joystick in the cockpit return to neutral position upon releasing the right/left key.

 

However, the same doesnt happen for up/down keys... this is why am sure this is a programing glitch & not a controller issue.

 

If i were to use a joystick instead... the problem would still persist.

[FLANKERATOR]

you're right, it should be the same for all axis...hmm, wondering.

[BattleAxes Skinner]

unfortunately, the support guys at dcs are the most un-helpful lot... its been 3 days since i raised a support ticket & no one has bothered to reply.

 

am really feeling short-changed having bought this piece of junk.

[EtherealN]

LOMAC as in vanilla LOMAC without FC?

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Yup... the vanilla LOMAC without FC.

 

I was very keen on buying the FC2, but having tasted the bitter pill of vanilla LOMAC, am now kinda put off.

[EtherealN]

Unfortunately, that's so old that the odds of someone actually flying it enough to be able to assist with a controller issue aren't great.

 

I am not sure I understand the description of your issue though. Ascend/Descend rate? Depending on what exactly is happening, that might be entirely appropriate. A change in flight parameters (speed, attitude, altitude, thrust, loading) will change the balance of the aircraft and require trimming. (Which is the reason why Joysticks are so highly recommended, it's just almost impossible to fly effectively with an on/off controller like a keyboard.)

 

If you would, could you grab some screenshots of a sequence where this occurs and explain exactly what is happening between them?

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Ok... will explain it in detail...

 

Upon taking control of the aircraft, if i pull-up/pull-down using the up/down arrow keys, & then release the respective key... the visual joystick within the cockpit doesn't return to the neutral position. The result is that, the aircraft either keeps inclining or declining infinitely.

 

Now compare this to the roll function, if i roll to the right/left by pressing right/left arrow keys & release them... the visual joystick within the cockpit returns back to the neutral position... which is the way it should be.

 

Hope you getting the picture now.

 

The problem with this erroneous pitch control is that it has made it impossible to control the aircraft. To counter the infinite incline, i press the opposite key to stablize it & then the aircraft starts infinitely declining... the resultant effect is continuous porpoising.

 

Unfortunately, this can't be explained through a screen shot & i dont have the capability to record it on video. If you search for "LOMAC Pitch problem" on google... you'll find n number of discussions detailing the problem but absolutely NO solution.

[EtherealN]

I found discussions regarding joystick calibration. But anyhow:

 

Unfortunately there can be a tonne of reasons for this behaviour that are hard to fix. F.ex, it uses Dx7 (we are talking about a 2003 product), and there may be issues in the backwards-compatibility of later DirectInput versions. Due to it's age LOMAC is a legacy product that is no longer maintained. (FC2 is the current-gen version.)

 

However, if you can attach a DxDiag there might be something possible to spot in there regarding the Dx environment that could be a possible cause.

[BattleAxes Skinner]

In that case LOMAC should be taken off the shelves not sold to unsuspecting sim fanatics like me in 2011.

 

Are you suggesting that such gross improprieties dont exist in FC2???

[EtherealN]

In that case LOMAC should be taken off the shelves not sold to unsuspecting sim fanatics like me in 2011.

 

Are you suggesting that such gross improprieties dont exist in FC2???

 

It is on the shelves because Ubisoft requires it to be installed to allow FC2 install. This is old legal obligations caused by Ubisoft owning the Lock On property. Ubisoft is the publisher and owner of LOMAC, not ED or TFC. There is nothing ED can do about this.

 

FC2 runs as stand alone (LOMAC only needs to be installed during install of FC2. FC2 is then run separately.) and uses the same underlying technology as DCS. The only technical aspect linking it to LOMAC is that LOMAC must be installed to install FC2 - again, due to Ubisoft requirements.

 

Also, for clarity: note that this applies to FC2. FC1 is a "real" expansion that runs as part of LOMAC. FC1 is not required for FC2.

Edited March 2, 2011 by EtherealN

[BattleAxes Skinner]

EnthrealN, i really appreciate ur patience in hearing this out... so if u suggest that i buy FC2, i'll do it based solely on ur recommendation.

 

So... again, what should i do?

[EtherealN]

Just hold a sec, I'm going to see if I am able to replicate that issue in FC2. I have actually never in my life even tried to run a simulator on keyboard, so I'll have a look.

 

As for FC2 install, you basically purchase it either from lockon.co.uk, or Direct2Drive. Download the install files (all of them to the same directory), then run the setup file. It does not need to be installed into the LOMAC directory - I would recommend something like C:\Games\FC2.

 

But again, wait a couple moments and I'll try to see what happens in FC2 when I try flying it with keyboard. (I expect to just crash my plane, but hey. :P )

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I play with a keyboard, & .... What do i do?

First, buy joystick. While it is possible to control aircraft with keyboard, it is indeed waste of time trying to play FC/DCS without joystick.

[BattleAxes Skinner]

... It does not need to be installed into the LOMAC directory - I would recommend something like C:\Games\FC2...

 

How about the normal C:\Program Files\... not recommended???

[EtherealN]

There we go, now I get what's happening.

It does occur in FC2 as well, and my conclusion from testing it around a bit is that it is intentional.

 

Basically, if this did not occur, you would be 100% incapable of performing contract turns, sustain turns and so on if playing on keyboard. (Indeed, you'd be overstressing your aircraft a LOT.) The fact that this happens allows you to set a specific elevator deflection as required for the maneuver. If this did not happen and the elevators acted like the ailerons, you would have only two possible modes of flight: level flight and max instantaneous turn.

 

So basically, your options are as follows:

1 - Learn to work with how that functions. Being able to maintain a specific elevator deflection is absolutely essential to controlled flight in combat.

2 - Purchase a joystick.

 

Personally I would recommend the latter. Doesn't need to be anything fancy of course, there are 20-30 dollar sticks that should serve.

[EtherealN]

How about the normal C:\Program Files\... not recommended???

 

Depends on your system and personal preferences. I am personally not a fan of installing there, since Windows has a lot of habits about that place that can cause issues. It's really protective of that folder.

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Ok... EnthrealN... will try this also out... for the sake of science :P

 

How about installing FC2 in the normal C:\Program Files\... scheme, is it not recommended?

[EtherealN]

Just hold a sec - you did see my last post on the previous page, right?

 

The did manage to find the same issue is there as well, and it is intentional. As explained in that post.

 

For program files, it all depends on your OS and how you have set it up. Normally it should work, but some users depending on configuration have reported issues with the security features in Vista and 7 when installing there.

[BattleAxes Skinner]

Yup i did... although i didnt understand a thing in ur 2nd paragraph... am willing to risk it on ur recommendation... have just purchased the license for FC2... will also get a joystick tomorrow... there goes my month's paycheck.

[EtherealN]

Well, on the second paragraph:

 

Contract Turn: that's a turn at a specific G-load. It's a "contract" you sign with your wingman - say "contract turns 3.5G". So if you are doing tactical formations and need to maneuver as a pair, both will maneuver equally hard and thus maintain formation. So with keyboard, you would roll left, push down until stick pressure gives 3.5G, and then release the key and the load factor of 3.5G will be maintained. Then you exit the maneuver through rolling back with right key and neutralizing stick with up key.

 

If releasing the down key reset the stick to neutral, like it does for roll, your G-loading would just continue to climb, and you would start losing speed/overstressing/blacking out etcetera. Effectively: flying into combat would be suicide.

 

A "sustain turn" is pretty similar: it is about going as high on G as you can while still maintaining your speed. The issue is that how many G you can keep varies with altitude. So if you find yourself in a fight and cannot "leave" the stick in a position, you would keep increasing the G and slow down, or have to release it and effectively level out. In both cases: you are dead.

 

A racing game analogy might help illustrate it: say you are playing a Formula 1 game, and you are coming up on a slow right turn. If you play on keyboard and the wheel resets when you release the key, you'll end up first pressing it; now it starts turning to hard; you release it; now you are going straight again but you are still in a turn; you press it again and you are turning too hard again. In good old Colin McRae (the first one, the last racing game I played on keyboard) I would find myself having to tap the turn keys furiously sometimes to try to keep the wheels somewhere between straight and full. With practice that worked, sort of, but in Colin McRae I don't need to operate radars and weapon systems at the same time. :P

 

Hopefully that explains it? I'm not the world's best at explaining things since I have a tendency to end up in jargon and sort of subcounsciously assume that the listener knows all the terminology. Apologies for that.