CCIR Release Aborted

[Doum76]

Greetings all,

 

Here i come once more with some question marks upon my cockpit. :pilotfly:

 

I've been training CCIP lately, trying not tu use TGP as much as possible and visualy spot target and use CCIP instead of CCRP... I came to a problem that i'Ve tried to solve or understand by myself, or tried to find some thread... here what happens...

 

When i use any of the RPL settings, either SGL or PRS, in CCIP, more than pften, let's say 4 runs out of 5, i end up with a Release Abort... i'.Ve tried so many times to find what what was the prob...

 

Only thread i found was an old one by the time of betas... Mentioning about depressing the weapon release button to quick, and that is not the ptob i keep it down long enough until i need to start the evading maneuver, and if i didn't heard all of the bombs released, you can be sure when i release the button, i get the yeelow message wit the Release Aborted...

 

Only thing i had noticed is happening mostly when i am not perfectly aligned, like a few degrees bank... the prob is, my Saitek, it's going away slowly, and need continous triming.. :( Might it be the saitek the prob that kinda send an amplified corrections in the direction that the A-10 cpu takes as a fast maneuvers ?

 

 

Anyways here's two videos.. if neded i'll provide a .trk... that starts to get really annoying... as much as, i get more sucess bombing T-72 or T-80 with a single MK-82 on SGL mode or 2 in PRS mode.... :joystick:

 

 

Happens around 11:33

 

Happens around 05:04

 

Once more thanks for the replies in advance. :)

 

Doum

Cluster

[nomdeplume]

A track would be better as it makes it much easier to look at how the DSMS is configured, and be able to take control to try it ourselves. The only times I've experienced 'release aborted' is when using CCRP or CCIP-CR mode and releasing the pickle button prior to actually getting the release cue. But you don't seem to be using CR mode so the bombs should be releasing as soon as you start holding the button down.

 

But, I can't work out what's happening from the video. If you can post a track where the problem occurs as early as possible that'd be very useful - ideally a mission where you start airborne close to the target area.

[RodBorza]

Doum76,

First of all, nice videos. People tend to substimated the value of unguided Mk-82's. Although in real combat I would prefer JDAMS or LGBs, Mk-82 when well emplyed are deadly and can be dropped dead on targets.

 

Ok, that said, maybe the problems you are having is related to where the weapons are loaded.

Bombs on stations 5 and 7 cannot be release in pairs.

Look here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=75977

[Doum76]

Doum76,

First of all, nice videos. People tend to substimated the value of unguided Mk-82's. Although in real combat I would prefer JDAMS or LGBs, Mk-82 when well emplyed are deadly and can be dropped dead on targets.

 

Ok, that said, maybe the problems you are having is related to where the weapons are loaded.

Bombs on stations 5 and 7 cannot be release in pairs.

Look here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=75977

 

 

Thanks for the reply, well that is a good post, i'Ve learned something. :)

But in Station 5&7 it's MK-82AIR, and MK-82 are in station 8 and 4. But i think i'Ve found the prob. I think i'm diving with a too low angle of attack and the minimum range carrets seems to get too close to the piper, so i guess all togheter makes problems. :) I've been doing tests with at least 45 deg and almost never fails, my problem is how to get in properly, that's what i am getting some pratice. :)

 

Thats why i train with MK-82, yeah JDAM are more accurate, but since i got in DCS, i was using CCRP, and never practice using visual to spot target and attack with any SPI, so when i got online with fellow Virtual Sqn, i sucked real hard cuz i was so crappy with out the use of TGP, CCRP. :)

 

Same with MAverick without TGP, doesn't happens often, but usefeul to be able to lock on multi targets one afetr the other with the TGP to fire Mavs in fast squences....

 

 

A track would be better as it makes it much easier to look at how the DSMS is configured, and be able to take control to try it ourselves. The only times I've experienced 'release aborted' is when using CCRP or CCIP-CR mode and releasing the pickle button prior to actually getting the release cue. But you don't seem to be using CR mode so the bombs should be releasing as soon as you start holding the button down.

 

But, I can't work out what's happening from the video. If you can post a track where the problem occurs as early as possible that'd be very useful - ideally a mission where you start airborne close to the target area.

 

Thanks also for the reply, i'll try to make a good .trk tomorow.

[RodBorza]

Thanks for the reply, well that is a good post, i'Ve learned something. :)

But in Station 5&7 it's MK-82AIR, and MK-82 are in station 8 and 4. But i think i'Ve found the prob. I think i'm diving with a too low angle of attack and the minimum range carrets seems to get too close to the piper, so i guess all togheter makes problems. :) I've been doing tests with at least 45 deg and almost never fails, my problem is how to get in properly, that's what i am getting some pratice. :)

.

 

Doum76,

 

Per your post, I believe the problem is related to the fragmentation envelope of the bombs. As you are diving in a deep angle and is close to the ground, the computer calculates that you are going to be hit by your own bombs fragments, so, it doesn't allow a release. So, trying to attack at higher altitudes, will give you more time to escape from the bombs blast.

I alwas attack at shallower angles, including gun attacks, but it's ok, every pilot has his own style.

And finally, the secrete on this sim is to practice, practice and practice! :pilotfly:

[Doum76]

Doum76,

 

Per your post, I believe the problem is related to the fragmentation envelope of the bombs. As you are diving in a deep angle and is close to the ground, the computer calculates that you are going to be hit by your own bombs fragments, so, it doesn't allow a release. So, trying to attack at higher altitudes, will give you more time to escape from the bombs blast.

I alwas attack at shallower angles, including gun attacks, but it's ok, every pilot has his own style.

And finally, the secrete on this sim is to practice, practice and practice! :pilotfly:

 

Well actualy i really believe the prob is from my Saitek x52 Pro, it needs triming most of the time, and if i dive in, and hold my stick in place or anything to keep a straight dive, i get this prob, as if, the cpu of the a-10 calculate a change of maneuver afetr ive presses the wepaon release, when i dive in and i dont don't much the stick, ie, sorta trim, it's perfect, anyways here's a.trk, training with JTAC laser marking with one of Dragon's training mission. You'll see, at 9L11 or so, i was flying straight forward and he jsut went eratic, i had to make some rude maneuvers so it kinda resets.

 

As for the bomb hitting myself, well i always keep the minimum range bracket over the piper, so basicly i'm safe, and i never released with the X inside the piper, with setting of CLM as escape maneuver, unless i get it wrong... afetr al there is so many stuff to learn in that beast A-10. :) But indeed sometimes i release too close to the bracket safe zone, specialy with tanks to get more precision on release, so you might have that right.

 

Indeed diving from higher altitude is easier, but i like to add some challenge, as if, ceiling would be low.. yeah thats me, training in tougher circomstances, so after the rest gets easy. :) Thats why i try to start from around 8 000-9 000 ft alt on those vids, so i safely drop my load before reaching around 3 700 ft which is +/- the alt that Tank's guns can hit us.

 

On the folowing .trk i try targets with some AAA (Ural) so i start my dive around 10 000 and yep some few times i get a bit too low, but as you said dude, training, training. :pilotfly:

 

 

PS: don't be too rude on my in this .trk, it was one of my first attemps to Laser spot targets with a JTACS, and straight forward dive in, with out pop-up. :joystick:

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[nomdeplume]

You'll see, at 9L11 or so, i was flying straight forward and he jsut went eratic, i had to make some rude maneuvers so it kinda resets.

This was due to the introduction of some left rudder input. After your 'rude manuevers' it was reset to 0. Maybe dodgy twist axis or something? You can use RCtrl+Enter in-game to display a dialog showing your input state. I've attached screenshots during the erratic period and just after - the rudder input is indicated by the vertical tick on the horizontal line along the bottom.

 

I don't know why your bombs stop releasing, though. You're outside of the minimum range bracket, and that's just an indicator anyway - you can still release if you have those indications.

 

Edit: I think this might be a bug with the weapon releases (or I could just be confused :)). I can reproduce it fairly easily with the same kind of loadout (slightly different though). First two bombs ripple fine, but the second two don't ripple - you get a single release instead. Then the same thing happens on the third try. Once you're down to one bomb on each pylon, they ripple correctly again. Will do some more testing and upload a track shortly.

 

More: Simplest reproduction is attached in a very short track. Loadout is 3xMk82s on TERs on stations 4 and 8. According to my beliefs and the chart the wonderful paulrkiii posted (see this post), I would've expected a ripple sequence of 2 bombs would drop one bomb from each of stations 8 and 4 on each pickle. What instead happens is this:

 

Pickle 1: two bombs dropped from station 8.

Pickle 2: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 3: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 4: one bomb dropped from each station.

 

Only the last one matched my expectations. Is this expected behaviour for some obscure reason?

 

Last edit: it seems like only the inner stations (5+7) follow the sequence depicted in that diagram. Stations 3+9 exhibit the same behaviour as 8+4. I also tried with longer ripples (4 bombs), and it dropped 3 from station 8, and then one from station 4. So I think it selects the first station to drop from based on the TER diagram, but refuses to continue a ripple started from a lower-priority station on a higher-priority station (so if you start a ripple from station 4 and the next one it should release from is station 8, it'll just stop releasing weapons). It also seems like it only advances to a different station if the first selected station is empty. So, rippling all your bombs works fine, even if they do come off in wrong order.

Mk82Ripple.trk

Edited October 29, 2011 by nomdeplume

[Doum76]

This was due to the introduction of some left rudder input. After your 'rude manuevers' it was reset to 0. Maybe dodgy twist axis or something? You can use RCtrl+Enter in-game to display a dialog showing your input state. I've attached screenshots during the erratic period and just after - the rudder input is indicated by the vertical tick on the horizontal line along the bottom.

 

Nice, i didn't know about that little diagram for control input... wel all that confirms what i afraid of a month ago, that the twist rudder might be a cause to my prob... because, between you and me, at the time in the track the control went crazy, i wasn't even holding the stick nor the throttle, i was completly hand free and it went crazy, anyways, i just made 2 test, deasign the twist for the rudder, and i was having way much more sucess when going in hot on a target, so i decided to reasign but in-game options adjust a good dead-zone, and seems to be working fine so far. So thanks indirectly helping solve this prob, i guess Saitek and Twist Ruddder after a while doesn't go well together. :joystick: One problem solved.

 

 

More: Simplest reproduction is attached in a very short track. Loadout is 3xMk82s on TERs on stations 4 and 8. According to my beliefs and the chart the wonderful paulrkiii posted (see this post), I would've expected a ripple sequence of 2 bombs would drop one bomb from each of stations 8 and 4 on each pickle. What instead happens is this:

 

Pickle 1: two bombs dropped from station 8.

Pickle 2: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 3: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 4: one bomb dropped from each station.

 

Only the last one matched my expectations. Is this expected behaviour for some obscure reason?

 

While reading your post, i suddenly thought that the unlimited ammo might had been a problem, while reseting the stations, might had sorta confused the system with reloaded stations, but as seen in the trk, i took off the unliment ammo option, and same thing happens again, as you described. I made two bombing run test, empting both stations, the two tries ended up in same 4 pickle pattern as you posted.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Doum76

[Olgerd]

The RELEASE ABORTED WCN appears only when you release the pickle button too early with the ripple release option chosen and the quantity being set > 1. I.e. when the quantity already released at the moment is less than the quantity to release set in the profile. Wait a bit more until all bombs have been dropped. The release sequence is never stopped by the system in any case, unless the pilot decides to stop it.

 

Edit

Possible reasons which prevent from the proper release sequence may be:

1) The next bomb can't be dropped because the calculated distance of the current impact point from the previous impact point is always less than the desired one set in the profile. Either lower the impacts spacing in the profile, or pull the stick a little bit while the pickle button is held. The minimum impacts spacing available in the profile is 10 feet. If you want to put all bombs into the same tank, do not use ripples. Just press the pickle button as many times as you need.

2) Your weapon release button is jittering generating multiple "on" and "off" when pressed.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Olgerd

[nomdeplume]

Possible reasons which prevent from the proper release sequence may be:

1) The next bomb can't be dropped because the calculated distance of the current impact point from the previous impact point is always less than the desired one set in the profile. Either lower the impacts spacing in the profile, or pull the stick a little bit while the pickle button is held.

I don't think this would be the case, as you'd need to be supplying pitch-forward input to cause that to occur. In my testing, I was in a shallow dive and definitely not pitching further forward. I used the same technique when dropping longer sequences and they all rippled off completely fine.

2) Your weapon release button is jittering generating multiple "on" and "off" when pressed.

I'm very confident this isn't the case - I watched the weapon release button on the virtual stick and it stayed depressed the whole time.

 

During a CCIP run unless you're carefully guiding the aircraft into the ground, the pipper should be moving across the terrain at a reasonable clip. In both mine and Doum76's tracks we kept the weapon release button down for several seconds. It definitely feels like the system is simply not proceeding to release any additional munitions.

[Olgerd]

I don't think this would be the case, as you'd need to be supplying pitch-forward input to cause that to occur. In my testing, I was in a shallow dive and definitely not pitching further forward. I used the same technique when dropping longer sequences and they all rippled off completely fine.

 

I'm very confident this isn't the case - I watched the weapon release button on the virtual stick and it stayed depressed the whole time.

 

During a CCIP run unless you're carefully guiding the aircraft into the ground, the pipper should be moving across the terrain at a reasonable clip. In both mine and Doum76's tracks we kept the weapon release button down for several seconds. It definitely feels like the system is simply not proceeding to release any additional munitions.

 

I think it is better to check this issue again when 1.1.1.0 will be out. There were some fixes made in the release logic.

[Doum76]

The RELEASE ABORTED WCN appears only when you release the pickle button too early with the ripple release option chosen and the quantity being set > 1. I.e. when the quantity already released at the moment is less than the quantity to release set in the profile. Wait a bit more until all bombs have been dropped. The release sequence is never stopped by the system in any case, unless the pilot decides to stop it.

 

Edit

Possible reasons which prevent from the proper release sequence may be:

1) The next bomb can't be dropped because the calculated distance of the current impact point from the previous impact point is always less than the desired one set in the profile. Either lower the impacts spacing in the profile, or pull the stick a little bit while the pickle button is held. The minimum impacts spacing available in the profile is 10 feet. If you want to put all bombs into the same tank, do not use ripples. Just press the pickle button as many times as you need.

2) Your weapon release button is jittering generating multiple "on" and "off" when pressed.

 

 

Ageed with Nomdeplume, plus, is you watch all tracks, always the same things happens, no matter what, Nomdeplume came up with that and i,ve tried a few times;

 

Pickle 1: two bombs dropped from station 8.

Pickle 2: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 3: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 4: one bomb dropped from each station.

 

If for some reason, we would had released the weapon release button, which is not the case, since that's the first thing i came up with to test as the problem occurs, i even once held down the release button unti i crashed on purppose and nothing ever released.

 

As for the pitch down, usualy if i had to adjust, was mostly nose up, since i roll in with the piper way lower that target, then nose up a bit to get the Minimum range bracket over the target but not too much to at least released weapons close enough to be able to drop as close as possible to the target, in other words its mostly pitch up than down. But in any cases, all things had to perfectly happens the same exact way on all tries, the 4 pickle released sequence stated before, happens anyways...and the probability of doing all same mistakes on 4-5 different flight, on each 4 passes, are pretty much low. :)

 

But if you wanna try, from a diff flight than our trk, load you station 4 & 8 with a 3x MK82 TER, set your DSMS as Default CLM escape maneuver, CCIP, Min altitude, up to you but i tried 500 ft and 1500 ft, RPL SGL, qty: 2, and the default 75 ft or any otehr distance i'Ve tried 40, 50, 80 or 90.

 

IFCC set as normal CCIP, no CR mode.

 

Then make a 4 passes over your target, and let us now how it goes.

 

 

Thanks for the reply :)

 

 

Doum

Edited October 30, 2011 by Doum76

[Olgerd]

Pickle 1: two bombs dropped from station 8.

Pickle 2: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 3: one bomb dropped from station 4, 'release aborted' message.

Pickle 4: one bomb dropped from each station.

 

I definitely can't reproduce this. I used the attached stat4-8-ter-ripl.trk, took control over it after DSMS settings have been set, and I always get two bombs dropped for each pickle I do. And no of RELEASE ABORTED WCN do appear.

[nomdeplume]

I definitely can't reproduce this. I used the attached stat4-8-ter-ripl.trk, took control over it after DSMS settings have been set, and I always get two bombs dropped for each pickle I do. And no of RELEASE ABORTED WCN do appear.

Just to confirm, you were testing with something after 1.1.0.9? So we can take this as confirmation the issue is fixed, or at least changed somehow? :)

[Olgerd]

Just to confirm, you were testing with something after 1.1.0.9? So we can take this as confirmation the issue is fixed, or at least changed somehow? :)

 

Yes with the latest developer build. It is beyond 1.1.1.0, but I think this issue is not reproduced in 1.1.1.0 as well.

[Eddie]

I'll check later on.

[Eddie]

Can be reproduced in 1.1.0.9 but not in 1.1.1.0.

[Olgerd]

Can be reproduced in 1.1.0.9 but not in 1.1.1.0.

 

Good news. Thank you Eddie.

[Doum76]

Great guys,

 

 

Good job and thanks. :)

 

 

Doum

[Doum76]

Whoaa :) Indeed, works like a charm in 1.1.1.0, thanks ED... :thumbup:

 

Some people, un some threads whined about canopy reflexion gone away and was mad at the point to revert to 1.1.0.9,, as for myself, i rather get a flight dynamic and avionics working rather some eye candy. ;) and no shutter, gotta loce that patch so far.

 

Keep on the good job, looking forward tonight to try out more in depth this so far, awesome patch. :)

 

 

:pilotfly: