TWS vs RWR

[golfsierra2]

A question to the experts here:

 

Alpha of VTFS 161 and I did some testing with FC 1.1 F15C vs MiG29S.

We found out that in TWS mode, the F15C can lock a MiG29S and even fire an AIM120 without producing any spike indication on the MiG's RWR, until the AIM120 goes active. So the MiG pilot only sees somebody 'nails' him, but gets no clue about a msl fired upon him until it's too late.

 

On the other side, the F15C gets a spike indication while the MiG29 is tracking him in TWS mode (locked).

 

Is this the way it works in reality ??

[britgliderpilot]

The MiG should only be getting the scan indicator, yes.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean on the TWS (locked) bit - since you can't actually lock a target in TWS mode with the MiG. And I would have thought that the single bugged target should again only be getting the scan indicator . . . . . so I'd rather like to know whether it does or not.

[GGTharos]

The MiG does not generate datalink commands when tracking a 'bugged' target, which is why its radar goes STT to guide an R-77.

[golfsierra2]

The MiG should only be getting the scan indicator, yes.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean on the TWS (locked) bit - since you can't actually lock a target in TWS mode with the MiG. And I would have thought that the single bugged target should again only be getting the scan indicator . . . . . so I'd rather like to know whether it does or not.

 

Well,

I was referring to common brevities when I wrote nails, spiked and locked.

 

What I meant was, that the RWR in the MiG29S only showed a warning, indicating that there was an AI radar somewhere in a certain direction. The next indication then would be what is known as 'spike', means the F15C would lock the MiG29S in STT (no spike indication while in TWS as I wrote before).

To the contrary, the F15C always get's a spike (lock) indication, while the MiG29S is in TWS mode.

 

So the TWS of the F15C is different than that of the MiG29S, right !?

[golfsierra2]

The MiG does not generate datalink commands when tracking a 'bugged' target, which is why its radar goes STT to guide an R-77.

 

However, even without firing a R77, the F15C got a 'spike' indication, unveiling that the F15c was locked by the MiG29S, and that while the MiG was still in TWS according to the HUD display.

[GGTharos]

You mean before the radar goes to STT?

That would be a bug.

[golfsierra2]

You mean before the radar goes to STT?

That would be a bug.

 

MiG29S in TWS = Spike indication (AI-Lock indication) at F15C

F15C in TWS = 'nails' indication (indicating only AI-radar in search mode) at MiG 29S,

spike came only after AIM120 went active about 12km before impact !!

[golfsierra2]

The MiG should only be getting the scan indicator, yes.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean on the TWS (locked) bit - since you can't actually lock a target in TWS mode with the MiG. And I would have thought that the single bugged target should again only be getting the scan indicator . . . . . so I'd rather like to know whether it does or not.

 

Well, the designator box (cursor) on the MiG29S HUD jumped on the radar echo of the F15C when it was dragged close to it using cooly-hat, that - as far as I understand - indicates that the radar is locked on that radar echo.

[GGTharos]

Yes, and it is within 85% ofthe missile's maximum range it will actually go to STT

[Gazehound]

Yeah if you actually lock the target in mig/su TWS rather than just follow it in TWS (locks autotamtically at 85% rmax like GG said), the bandit will get a lock warning.

However, locking a target in TWS in an Eagle will give no lock warning until a missile goes active.

 

This is how it is supposed to work, as Russian jets lack a 'proper' TWS mode.

 

If you suspect you are being bugged like that switch jammer on ~breifly~ to stop tws mode tracking you. Obviously if you keep it on too long you will get hoj locked and you just gave away your position.

[golfsierra2]

Yeah if you actually lock the target in mig/su TWS rather than just follow it in TWS (locks autotamtically at 85% rmax like GG said), the bandit will get a lock warning.

However, locking a target in TWS in an Eagle will give no lock warning until a missile goes active.

 

This is how it is supposed to work, as Russian jets lack a 'proper' TWS mode.

 

If you suspect you are being bugged like that switch jammer on ~breifly~ to stop tws mode tracking you. Obviously if you keep it on too long you will get hoj locked and you just gave away your position.

 

Thanks, GGTharos and Gazehound,

that clarifies the issue. I was not aware of that MiG29-radar limitation.

So this is no bug, have to live with this sort of disadvantage...

[GGTharos]

Yep. Witness military budget cuts at work ;)

 

From what I've heard though, this is a minor disadvantage - the Mig's radar is supposedly notorious for generating spurious (false) contacts and other undesireable things.

[enigma6584]

Yeah if you actually lock the target in mig/su TWS rather than just follow it in TWS (locks autotamtically at 85% rmax like GG said), the bandit will get a lock warning.

However, locking a target in TWS in an Eagle will give no lock warning until a missile goes active.

 

This is how it is supposed to work, as Russian jets lack a 'proper' TWS mode.

 

If you suspect you are being bugged like that switch jammer on ~breifly~ to stop tws mode tracking you. Obviously if you keep it on too long you will get hoj locked and you just gave away your position.

 

That is a good tactic! Thanks for the tip. Always learning something new here.

 

Cheers.

[Alfa]

It is a bug if the F-15 gets a lock warning while the radar of the opposing MiG-29 is still operating in SNP(TWS) mode. A lock warning should only occur when the MiG-29 radar enters STT mode for SARH support.

 

The N019(for MiG-29) and N001(for Su-27/Su-33) radars were "built around" the R-27R/RE SARH missile and their missile deployment procedure was designed for supporting this weapon - hence the automatic switch to STT mode when target falls within missile engagement parameters.

 

In Lock-on this will occur even if the aircraft is a MiG-29S deploying the R-77, because launch of this missile from SNP mode isnt implemented. There is still some uncertainty about whether the N019M radar of the MiG-29S features such a functionality - i.e. whether this radar upgrade:

 

a). provides the ability to deploy the R-77 directly from a modified SNP mode or...

 

b). .whether it only amounts to a more subtle software upgrade that allows the SUV-29S firecontrol system to recognise the R-77 missile and calculate engagement parameters for it.....but retaining the SNP > STT targeting procedure of the baseline N019 radar when deploying it.

 

However, this uncertainty comes from the fact that the R-77 missile was "backfitted" to the MiG-29S, and its N019 radar(N019M) was modified to use it. It is not a case of "Russian jets lack a 'proper' TWS mode" - the R-77 missile was developed for the N010 "Zhuk" radar, which allows simultaneous engagement of 2-4 targets directly from TWS in the same way as with "US jets" ;) .

 

But of course the Zhuk radar is not an entity for any of the current Lock-on MiG-29 versions......we will have to wait for the MiG-29K :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

Alfa, from now on when we speak about 'Russian Jets' in Lock On, we are referring to the flyable Russian jets in Lock On. I think that's what everyone means ;)

[Alfa]

Alfa, from now on when we speak about 'Russian Jets' in Lock On, we are referring to the flyable Russian jets in Lock On. I think that's what everyone means ;)

 

Hehe...well if you say so :D

 

But from this...

 

This is how it is supposed to work, as Russian jets lack a 'proper' TWS mode.

 

...it was not clear whether Gazehound was talking specifically about the Russian jets currently flyable in Lock-on or Russian jets in general - to me it sounded as the latter, and in that connection I think it is rather important to emphasise that the intention with the R-77 wasnt for it to be deployed from STT mode :)

 

Besides, as I mentioned, it may actually not be the way it is supposed to work with the MiG-29S currently in Lock-on either ;) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[golfsierra2]

It is a bug if the F-15 gets a lock warning while the radar of the opposing MiG-29 is still operating in SNP(TWS) mode. A lock warning should only occur when the MiG-29 radar enters STT mode for SARH support.

 

The N019(for MiG-29) and N001(for Su-27/Su-33) radars were "built around" the R-27R/RE SARH missile and their missile deployment procedure was designed for supporting this weapon - hence the automatic switch to STT mode when target falls within missile engagement parameters.

 

In Lock-on this will occur even if the aircraft is a MiG-29S deploying the R-77, because launch of this missile from SNP mode isnt implemented. There is still some uncertainty about whether the N019M radar of the MiG-29S features such a functionality - i.e. whether this radar upgrade:

 

a). provides the ability to deploy the R-77 directly from a modified SNP mode or...

 

b). .whether it only amounts to a more subtle software upgrade that allows the SUV-29S firecontrol system to recognise the R-77 missile and calculate engagement parameters for it.....but retaining the SNP > STT targeting procedure of the baseline N019 radar when deploying it.

 

However, this uncertainty comes from the fact that the R-77 missile was "backfitted" to the MiG-29S, and its N019 radar(N019M) was modified to use it. It is not a case of "Russian jets lack a 'proper' TWS mode" - the R-77 missile was developed for the N010 "Zhuk" radar, which allows simultaneous engagement of 2-4 targets directly from TWS in the same way as with "US jets" ;) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

I'd like to point out that I hadn't fired a R77, I had only locked the F15C in TWS mode, and the RWR in the F15C indicated a lock ! The HUD in the MIG29S at this time still showed TWS. I'm sure about this.

 

The F15C had locked me as well in TWS mode, a bit earlier because of the better range of the APG-radar. Even after the F15C fired a missile at me (thus staying in TWS - it obviously can in FC1.1) I did not receive a lock-warning on my RWR. Until the AIM120 itself went active - about 12 km head-on. No way to escape for me.

 

This result was repeatable, but I didn't watch for the TWS / SCAN indication in my HUD when once firing a R77 at the F15C. Maybe it then switched to SCAN / STT mode (as I know now, it should do this). Have to try that set up again...

 

One more question:

Will the N019 radar automatically switch from TWS to STT once the 85% range parameter is achieved or only after firing an R77?

In the first case,

1. I would be able to lock an opponent without inducing a RWR lock warning right from the start and

2. If I monitor my HUD, the automatically selection of STT would indicate that the oppenent is within 85% of my R77 max range.

 

Both is of great value for chosing the appropriate tatics.

 

I think, this is an important issue to know about one's own aircraft capabilities and how it is modeled in FC1.1 !

[britgliderpilot]

Hmmn. Sounds like there's some misunderstanding going on here.

 

You're not supposed to be able to fire an R77 from TWS mode. Bugging a target in this radar version doesn't do much more than give the range to that target and pre-select it for STT. Can't guide a weapon with that.

 

If you get to the lock stage (circle around the target), then you ARE in STT.

 

 

What, exactly, are you doing with your radar here?

 

 

And in answer to your question, yes, the radar will only transition from bugged target in TWS mode to STT mode when you've reached 85% max range.

[Alfa]

I'd like to point out that I hadn't fired a R77, I had only locked the F15C in TWS mode, and the RWR in the F15C indicated a lock ! The HUD in the MIG29S at this time still showed TWS. I'm sure about this.

 

Doesnt sound good - something that needs to be looked into :)

 

The F15C had locked me as well in TWS mode, a bit earlier because of the better range of the APG-radar. Even after the F15C fired a missile at me (thus staying in TWS - it obviously can in FC1.1) I did not receive a lock-warning on my RWR. Until the AIM120 itself went active - about 12 km head-on. No way to escape for me.

 

No problem here - thats the way it should be.

 

This result was repeatable, but I didn't watch for the TWS / SCAN indication in my HUD when once firing a R77 at the F15C. Maybe it then switched to SCAN / STT mode (as I know now, it should do this). Have to try that set up again...

 

As mentioned earlier, with the MiG-29 versions in Lock-on you cannot launch an R-77 while being in SNP(TWS) mode - so at the point of launch you must have been in STT.

 

The N019 and N001 radars can track and display up to 10 contacts in SNP mode - the purpose of this mode is to let the firecontrol system determine which of the tracked contacts will first enter the engagement envolupe of your selected weapon, by comparing track data of that target with missile parameters - once there is a "match", the radar will automatically enter STT mode to support(provide "continious illumination" of the target) for the SARH seeker of the missile.

 

If your radar is operating in a search mode("encounter", "pursuit" or "automatic") then manually selecting a target will send you directly into STT mode.

 

One more question:

Will the N019 radar automatically switch from TWS to STT once the 85% range parameter is achieved or only after firing an R77?

 

Yes the N019 radar will automatically enter STT mode before issuing a launch authorisation - i.e. before you can launch your weapon. The reason for this is the one I mentioned above - namely that this radar was designed specifically for the R-27R missile which is SARH, and thus needs STT support for its seekerhead.

 

And there is something to suggest that this is also the case with the N019M radar(installed in the MiG-29S) although the R-77, which the N019M was modified to deploy, doesnt actually need this STT support since it is an ARH weapon. Again as mentioned earlier, the question is whether the upgraded N019M radar includes a new R-77 deployment procedure directly from a modified SNP mode, or merely lets the N019M deploy the R-77 in the same way as the N019 would deploy an R-27R....i.e. only after switching to STT.

 

At any rate, the latter is the way it is modelled in Lock-on :)

 

In the first case,

1. I would be able to lock an opponent without inducing a RWR lock warning right from the start

 

Yes that right - and thats the way it should be in Lock-on too. If your F-15C opponent gets a lock warning on his RWR at this stage, it is a bug.

 

2. If I monitor my HUD, the automatically selection of STT would indicate that the oppenent is within 85% of my R77 max range.

 

It will indicate that the target is within missile range - the radar does not transition from SNP to STT before this occurs. But it is not an R-77 specific - it also happens with the baseline N019(MiG-29) and N001(Su-27 and Su-33) when deploying an R-27R or(for the Flankers) an R-27RE.

 

Both is of great value for chosing the appropriate tatics.

 

Yup :)

 

I think, this is an important issue to know about one's own aircraft capabilities and how it is modeled in FC1.1 !

 

Yes it is indeed :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.