A few questions regarding Radar and EOS

[jermin]

1. Why can a R-27ET be launched with a radar lock? Isn't it supposed to be a heat-seeking missile?

 

2. If the bandit flies into a cloud right after the lock, will I still get a LA? (assuming the bandit is within the range of ET)

 

3. Will the bandit get a missile-launch warning on his RWR after I launch the ET?

 

4. Do I have to maintain the radar lock after launching the ET?

 

5. I've also read on the forum that EOS can be used to launch RH missiles. Why? If this is true, will the bandit get a missile-launch warning?

 

6. What's the size of radar beam for Russian fighters? Is it ±5 degrees in elevation and ±30 degrees in azimuth?

 

7. How long do I have to wait after I slew radar beam to a certain direction in order to get that area of sky fully scanned?

Edited May 16, 2012 by jermin

[FlankerFan2012]

1. I believe the seeker on the ET needs to acquire the target. It is a heat seeking missile, with an electro-optical seeker.

2. In FC2, yes I believe so. I don't think clouds affect radar or EO systems in FC2.

3. No. The radar does not change modes when the ET is fired. With semi active radar homing missiles, the radar on the launch plane changes modes which is detected by the target. This is not the case with the ET missile.

4. No. Radar lock is needed just for radar guided missiles (semi active and most active for longer ranges).

5. I think the only missile that can be launched like this is the r-77, which is active radar homing. Once fired, I'm guessing the r-77's onboard radar would go active to track the target. The enemy's RWR/RWS system would pick up the incoming missile.

6. 30 degrees sounds about right for horizontal, not sure about vertical.

7. No idea but I would guess the way it's modeled in FC2 it would be under 2 seconds. This being said, you will never get a complete scan of the sky as distance, target altitude, target aspect, your altitude and target radar cross section will all affect if detection occurs. Also, I believe high pulse return frequency scans faster than medium pulse return frequency.

[jermin]

Thanks for the explanation, dude.

[104th_Crunch]

1) You can launch the R-27ET with radar lock, but the radar lock is not doing anything for the guidance of the missile. The missile will need to use it's own seeker to lock. Better to use EOS and wait for the LA confirmation.

 

2) Cloud thermal signature is not modelled.

 

3) No warning is given.

 

4) No. The missile is completely autonomous using it's own thermal seeker

 

5) You can't use EOS to launch a radar missile. As mentioned, you can lock with EOS and fire a R-77, but the R-77 will use it's own seeker.

 

6) +-30° in azimuth (slewable left and right to a max of +-60°) and +-5° in elevation (slewable up and down to a max of +-30°).

 

7) Not very long at all. I believe that there is a 4 bar scan pattern implemented. Really, it pretty much instantaneous if there is a contact in the scan area and the aspect and distance is such that your radar will detect it.

[jermin]

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Here's a few more regarding Russian missiles.

 

1. Do I have to maintain the target lock until the active seeker on R-77 goes active?

 

2. Is there a way to know if the active seeker has gone active on R-77?

 

3. If the radar loses the target lock for a short time and regain the lock, will there be a chance for the ballistically flying R-27ER to regain the guidance?

 

4. If I fire a R-27ER towards a jammer, will keeping the radar lock increase the possibility of hit?

 

5. If the jammer stops jamming, will the ER just go ballistic or automatically search for other available jammers?

Edited May 16, 2012 by jermin

[104th_Crunch]

No problem jermin,

1. No you do not have to maintain lock. Once the missile is within approximately 10km it will use it's own seeker. In the F-15 you have a counter for this, but not in the RUS planes. Now, if you have a friendly in the area, better to maintain lock and continue guiding the missile so it won't hit the friendly accident.

 

2. See above, nope. Just estimation on distance.

 

3. Yes, if you regain lock, it is possible to re-guide the R-27ER

 

4. No, if the jammer keeps ECM on, you keeping radar lock will do nothing. The 27ER will be guiding in on the ECM signal. If the ECM is turned off then on, then it would be better to lock the target. Before FC2, people would their ECM on/off rapidly for this reason. That why a ECM boot up time was implemented.

 

5. It will go ballistic.

Never forget to turn off ECM if you have been fired on and a SAHR missile is close. It will track you like a dog till the end of the earth :)

[GGTharos]

The beam width is about 3 degrees.

 

The radar gimbals are +- 70 deg in all directions IIRC.

 

6. What's the size of radar beam for Russian fighters? Is it ±5 degrees in elevation and ±30 degrees in azimuth?

[GGTharos]

You do not, but as distance between the missile and target increases at that point where you break lock, so does the missile's probability of hitting dirt.

 

In other words, on long-ranged shots, you really do want to hold that lock until active.

 

2. Is there a way to know if the active seeker has gone active on R-77?

[Alfa]

1. Why can a R-27ET be launched with a radar lock? Isn't it supposed to be a heat-seeking missile?

 

The missile is "LOBL"(Lock On Before Launch), which means that the IR seeker must acquire the target before the missile can be launched. In order to acquire the target, the seeker needs to be told where to look it - the aircraft's weapons control system can obtain target information via 3 different methods:

 

- the electro-optical system(EOS)

- the radar

- the pilot's helmet mounted sighting device(HMS).

 

2. If the bandit flies into a cloud right after the lock, will I still get a LA? (assuming the bandit is within the range of ET)

 

In real life the target's heat signature will be affected by varies factors including humitity, but AFAIK such fidelity isn't modelled in the game.

 

3. Will the bandit get a missile-launch warning on his RWR after I launch the ET?

 

No - missile launch warning relates to radar guided weapons - IIRC detecting when the launching radar starts to transmit midcourse guidance to support the in-flight missile.

 

4. Do I have to maintain the radar lock after launching the ET?

 

No - an IR missile is completely "fire & forget".

 

5. I've also read on the forum that EOS can be used to launch RH missiles.

 

Not possible with SARH missiles such as the R-27R/ER.

 

6. What's the size of radar beam for Russian fighters? Is it ±5 degrees in elevation and ±30 degrees in azimuth?

 

The beam width is some 3.5 degrees.

 

Radar scan limits are +/- 65 degrees in azimuth and +56/-36 degrees in elevation.

 

The azimuth range is divided into three 50 degree sectors(selected by pilot): [Right sector: +65 to +15], [Center sector: +25 to -25] and [Left sector: -15 to -65]

 

This is for the N019(MiG-29), but should be the same for the N001(Su-27 and Su-33)

 

7. How long do I have to wait after I slew radar beam to a certain direction in order to get that area of sky fully scanned?

 

IIRC scanning cycles are completed in 2-5 seconds depending on operating mode(real radar - not sure how this is modelled in the game).

[VAOZoky]

1. Why can a R-27ET be launched with a radar lock? Isn't it supposed to be a heat-seeking missile?

 

2. If the bandit flies into a cloud right after the lock, will I still get a LA? (assuming the bandit is within the range of ET)

 

3. Will the bandit get a missile-launch warning on his RWR after I launch the ET?

 

4. Do I have to maintain the radar lock after launching the ET?

 

5. I've also read on the forum that EOS can be used to launch RH missiles. Why? If this is true, will the bandit get a missile-launch warning?

 

6. What's the size of radar beam for Russian fighters? Is it ±5 degrees in elevation and ±30 degrees in azimuth?

 

7. How long do I have to wait after I slew radar beam to a certain direction in order to get that area of sky fully scanned?

 

1. ET can't be fired with radar alone (it need EOS lock)

 

2. Already explaned

 

3.Now this is tricky question. There is bug that will sometimes (it can happen under any condition) enable target to detect your ET lunch :doh:

 

4. After 1000+h in multiplayer i come to conclusion that it is better to maintain your EOS lock until positive hit. Someone will say that in RL u dont need to do that, but i remind u this is not real life and as all software its full of bugs

 

5.EOS can't be used to fire SARH missiles. It can be used to fire R77 (maddoging)

 

6.That sounds right

 

7.Again tricky question. Radar in FC2 have 2-3sec lag. BUT u have to calculate in multiplayer lag too. In my experiance someone flying 1300+ higher or lower then you (3km+vertical diference) and closer then 15km can be virtualy undetectable and/or nonlockable (it hapens wery often in mp).

There is one more thing: Beryoza lag (2-3sec). So when AIM120C goes active ~15km u wont detect it untill its some 7-8km from u. Same thing with r77 and sahr missiles and locks.

[jermin]

Thanks for the replies, guys! I really appreciate it.

 

Now here's some questions regarding missile evasion in FC2.

 

I've read a post written by GG back in 2008 regarding SARH missile evading tactics:

 

You put it on the 3/9 line to dodge it, not necessarily to bleed its energy off.

 

Let's think of a standard BVR scenario:

 

You and your target are approaching each other head-on, at the same altitude and airspeed. You both launch SARH at each other when in range, at the same time.

 

What you should do:

- Turn away from the target as far as you can, without dropping lock. This should put him on your 10 or 2.

- Start a dive to prevent him from notching you.

- Start pumping the nose up and down - smooth 3-4 g vertical reversals. This is where you bleed the missile of energy. If launched at significant ranges, you won't have to worry about dodging it.

- A little while after you get the launch warning, start pre-emptively launching chaff and flares, if you think you will need them. This can decoy the missile before it ever gets a chance to lock onto you. 3-5sec intervals are ok, if you're sure it's tracking you, don't die with chaff and flare onboard! USE THEM!

- Hopefuly, he didn't do the same, and has now flown head-first into your missile, which hits a significant time sooner than his missile would take to reach you.

 

Now, lets look at a scenario you seem to be talking about:

 

You've got a bandit at medium-ish distance, and he has just launched on you.

 

You can:

- Do what I described above, after firing back, but the chance of being hit is higher (but not as high as flying into his missile )

- Decide you're in a bad position, a slice-back in a hard, sustained-speed 180 to put him on your tail and run; run him into your SAMs, or your friends, or out of fuel - or, if he's human, he just might let you go. Your choice.

 

 

Another scenario is being shot up close, and you have a few choices here:

- Launch a missile at him to scare him off, and turn to try and put his weapon on your 3/9. Pump countermeasures like crazy, and execute an orthogonal barrel roll once his missile's in the right position (practice this time); you will want to use a heat seeker or ARH here, so you won't have to worry about it after it comes off your rails.

- You may not have time to launch a missile. If you are feeling suicidal, and you think it's ok to just trade deaths, try to launch a missile on him, but you WILL be hit. Otherwise, do it like a real pilot, dodge hist shots as best you can, and hope your wingnut nails him for you.

What? Your wingnut got shot down? Why didn't you abort the mission?

 

 

There's other scenarios and answers, naturally.

 

Since the A2A combat in FC2 has changed radically. I wonder whether the tactics he mentioned such as vertical reversals are still applicable. And are there any tactics that I should know when fighting a SARH missile?

[GGTharos]

These still apply.

[FLANKERATOR]

7.Again tricky question. Radar in FC2 have 2-3sec lag. BUT u have to calculate in multiplayer lag too. In my experiance someone flying 1300+ higher or lower then you (3km+vertical diference) and closer then 15km can be virtualy undetectable and/or nonlockable (it hapens wery often in mp).

There is one more thing: Beryoza lag (2-3sec). So when AIM120C goes active ~15km u wont detect it untill its some 7-8km from u. Same thing with r77 and sahr missiles and locks.

 

Good point +1. Hopefully FC3 will address this.

 

I wonder if F-15C radar in FC2 suffers from the same lag...

[GGTharos]

It's the same deal for every radar. At very close ranges, the radar cone is small, so the probability that the target will exit the radar coverage before you hit 'lock' is high. Inside some 10nm, use auto-modes.

[FLANKERATOR]

Indeed GG, but what Zoky and myself tried to underline is rather the needed time for the radar to actually display the contact regardless of the range...Once again Zoky's statement actually reminded me what I've felt myself during the transition from FC 1.12 to 2.0.

 

In 1.12, you could scan faster, i.e change azimuth and elevation with less time between every pattern whereas in 2.0 you need to hold for at least 1 sec to make sure no contact is in the current radar cone, before moving to the next one...maybe the bar scan changed from the 2 versions, maybe this is how it should to be, anyway the change is in there and it forces you tom scan much slower especially if there is added lag coming from the MP server itself.

[GGTharos]

Correct, the radar now uses the appropriate amount of time for the bars it scans, and this is where your perception of lag may come from. This is again applicable to all playable radars in-game.

 

I don't think MP lag is significant enough to hinder you here, though.

 

Indeed GG, but what Zoky and myself tried to underline is rather the needed time for the radar to actually display the contact regardless of the range...Once again Zoky's statement actually reminded me what I've felt myself during the transition from FC 1.12 to 2.0.

 

In 1.12, you could scan faster, i.e change azimuth and elevation with less time between every pattern whereas in 2.0 you need to hold for at least 1 sec to make sure no contact is in the current radar cone, before moving to the next one...maybe the bar scan changed from the 2 versions, maybe this is how it should to be, anyway the change is in there and it forces you tom scan much slower especially if there is added lag coming from the MP server itself.

[FLANKERATOR]

That's great then, since it is an intentional update supposed to reflect the real behavior of an airborne radar.

[VAOZoky]

There is still problem with noticable beryoza lag 2-3sec on lock and unlock.

I understand that radar need time to collect and process information but beryoza is to my knowledge passive sensor that ativate some red lights in cockpit (the stonger radiation = more red lights :)). Something like geiger counter.

[GGTharos]

Beryoza may also need time (realize that it does not simply show you the strongest emission source, but also recognizes the type of emitter, while rejecting spurious signals and non-threats), but the amount of time required to process the radio waves all around it is classified. The more emitters you have, the more time it takes, and they don't necessarily have to be military purpose emitters or even radars at all.