SARH only F-15 - your tactics

[SgtPappy]

The F-15 is easily my favourite Cold War fighter and I would like a bit of information regarding your tactics in it when flying with only SARH missiles.

 

My weapon of choice is the AIM-7M because I find it very sporty to play with semi-actives rather than blow everything up with AIM-120's. I'm planning to join the 80's week games eventually if I ever get good at this game, so I was wondering what YOU pilots use when it comes to guiding AIM-7Ms to targets. My main questions are as follows:

 

- Would Flood mode be advantageous in any way?

- If the enemy has only R-27R/T (no ER/ET) and I've only got -7M's, what are their relative Rmax's, Pk's and guidance capabilities for the same given altitude/platform launch speed/head-on aspect?

- I know that F-15 pilots are often wary of long range ET's eating their faces, but with the shorter range 1980's R-27T, should I be as wary?

 

I remember Case posting a link 80's week stats and it can be seen that the use of the F-15 drops by about 40% with its K/D going down accordingly. The thread concluded that SPAMRAAM F-15 pilots were too inept with guiding semi-actives, would end up WVR too often where the Reds and their R-73's took a lot of kills.

[GGTharos]

Sounds about right. Just means you need to practice your WVR fight.

[Tango]

If your opponent has better weapons than you in BVR, either avoid a fight or take it in close where you have the edge if you really must fight (remembering you are in the danger zone the entire time to the merge).

 

It's OK having better weapons, but you mustn't let them replace good tactics. ;) Hit the tanker for a bit then engage. They'll run out of fuel eventually. :D

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Tango

[SgtPappy]

haha, so I'm a little unclear...

 

Who's got the better weapons for an 80's BVR fight?

 

I'm under the impression that the F-15's got superior med/high alt performance, superior radar and (last I checked) a slightly more reliable weapon in the form of the AIM-7M compared to the Russian R-27R's.

 

How dangerous are R-27T's though, and if I use flood mode to guide Sparrows, would the enemy know that I fired despite not being in STT mode?

[GGTharos]

The F-15 should be superior in this BVR fight, but this is not accurately reflected in-game. The Flanker has some advantages on you including the ability to track you while you're in the notch, missiles equivalent to yours (Albeit slight shorter ranged, but this should not matter IMHO) etc etc. You're basically about even, but you're carrying fewer weapons generally.

 

The 27T's are pretty dangerous if you're not looking out for them.

[SgtPappy]

Damn, that's too bad. Even BVR but outclasses WVR. I guess it's time to practise some more. I'm planning to build some dummy missions so my friends and I can test our planes in such situations.

 

I'd like to get familiar with the advantages/disadvantages of each radar mode.

 

I suppose if the R-27T is easy to dodge/flare if I see it but now I wonder if it will leave a smoke trail during BVR. Otherwise, I don't suppose I'd know how to dodge it unless I assumed it was launched and when it was launched.

[GGTharos]

It can't be launched far enough for you to NOT see the trail.

[SgtPappy]

Oh, that's very relieving to know. I suppose you don't think the slight extra range of the AIM-7M means much, but I'm ganna go ahead and bank on its extra range to boost my morale if nothing else :P

 

EDIT: I just read that the speed of the launch platform does nothing to boost your missile... I find that sorta lame as kinematic advantage is a big thing for the F-15C. I suppose that takes away one of my RL advantages...

Edited June 8, 2012 by SgtPappy

[Frostie]

Oh, that's very relieving to know. I suppose you don't think the slight extra range of the AIM-7M means much, but I'm ganna go ahead and bank on its extra range to boost my morale if nothing else :P

 

EDIT: I just read that the speed of the launch platform does nothing to boost your missile... I find that sorta lame as kinematic advantage is a big thing for the F-15C. I suppose that takes away one of my RL advantages...

You should work with a friend to get the best out it, not only do the shorter ranges mean you're likely to end up in a merge, but extending from such a close range battle means turning back in against EOS using opponents is a huge gamble that you will most likely lose.

With a wingman you can work with him to cover each others extends and also for just general support.

[Pilotasso]

Whan playing a 2 side SARH game, the best way to get a kill is to have your team coordinated so you can come close unoticed and pop one under 10 miles. Shooting further from that is a waste of time and ordnance unless you are the one playing as bait. Any half competent player will then have plenty time to evade, at the most youll just piss him off and his mates. :)

 

The Su-27 and F-15 are very evenly matched in FC in SARH fights. The Sparrow has a slight advantage on paper over the R-27R but if you follow this rule it wont matter at all, both weapons will have enough energy to reach their targets safe if they are decoyed.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Pilotasso

[SgtPappy]

So I practised against the AI Su-27 today and it seems like they don't know what they're doing.

 

We beamed each other until all our missiles were lost then ended WVR. I think I only took him down because the AI's not very good. I mean I've seen F-15 pilots give Su-27 pilots a hard time, but I think I just owned the AI this time.

 

Is there a tutorial out there in which I can learn how to modify the game's stock F-15 DACT missions so my buddy and I can practise BVR and WVR?

[GGTharos]

So I practised against the AI Su-27 today and it seems like they don't know what they're doing.

 

They're not the most capable BVR opponents, but they're entirely capable of killing you.

 

We beamed each other until all our missiles were lost then ended WVR. I think I only took him down because the AI's not very good. I mean I've seen F-15 pilots give Su-27 pilots a hard time, but I think I just owned the AI this time.

 

Right. You can do the same to other players if you know how, but the AI makes the exercise 'relaxing'. Plus inside about 5nm, the flanker has the advantage against you and things start getting fairly difficult.

 

If you run into a capable player, you will acquire a helmet fire quickly.

 

Is there a tutorial out there in which I can learn how to modify the game's stock F-15 DACT missions so my buddy and I can practise BVR and WVR?

 

Not much in terms of tutorials that you'll need for this ... open the mission and change the non-client plane to client (click on the plane and change its 'AI difficulty setting' from whatever it is to 'client'.)

[Exorcet]

1 v 1 SARH fights have never been terribly exciting for me, as it just ends up as missile launch + beaming + repeat. Fly as part as a team when you can (this goes for ARH missiles too).

 

Use the F-15's radar to your advantage. Even with the AIM-7 I will use TWS a lot to keep an eye on my target without letting him know I've found him. This is especially useful in engagements with multiple planes. If you have a friend(s) blasting jammers and locking on to Flankers, he will be effectively blinding/distracting their radar and RWR and hopefully leaving an opening for you. With TWS, you'll still appear on the Flanker's RWR, but they will only get signal strength info on the STT lock.

 

T and ET missiles are a Flanker advantage, but both are limited by seeker range. They will never reach as far as Sparrows, and their seekers are easier to fool than R/ER. As long as you have flares and good SA, you should be reasonably safe from T/ET.

[Mar]

Here is a track where I nailed an F-15 with a single Alamo and dodged his AMRAAM at the same time by putting my missile in the air and then notching for a few seconds before turning back in, locking him up and giving my missile guidance again. Listen up kids, this is why you always take action when a missile is fired at you, not when the missile is 2 miles out!

 

The slammer still found me but didn't have enough energy left to give chase.

One Shot One Kill Su-27.trk

[SgtPappy]

Thanks for all your replies, gents,

 

GG and Exorcet, I find your advice particularly interesting because the fight ends up WVR so often.

 

Thanks for the track Mar, but I don't really know where to put it. There's no "track" folder in the directory. Oh and also, you said you were able to reaquire lock? I always thought that if you lose lock for even a second, any SARH will just go ballistic?

Edited June 9, 2012 by SgtPappy

[Exorcet]

AIM-7 goes ballistic once lock is lost, R-27 goes ballistic until lock is reacquired.

 

The track folder is in the mission folder.

[Mar]

AIM-7 goes ballistic once lock is lost, R-27 goes ballistic until lock is reacquired.

 

Didn't know that, thanks for the heads up.

[104th_Maverick]

at the same time by putting my missile in the air and then notching for a few seconds before turning back in, locking him up and giving my missile guidance again.

 

You fired an Aim 7... then notched a bandit for a few seconds then turned back into him to give your missile more guidance?

 

No... you didn't... I just watched the track..... phew... I was really worried there for a few moments.

 

Your missile misses the bandit on the track by the way!

 

SARH vs SARH best thing to do (my opinion I reserve the right NOT to be crucified by the Arm Chair Air Force for suggesting these actions are best)

 

Altitude is king!

 

It doesn't matter if he fires first (to a certain extent) if your higher than he is.. your missile will go faster.. simple as that.

In an F-15 with an Aim7 you want to be a close to RTR as possible before you fire.

I always do everything I can to get the bandit into RTR before I fire SARH from an F-15. Even if it means taking some serious risks to get to this point. I ONLY ever fire an Aim7 OUTSIDE of RTR when a friendly is in trouble and I want to try and help him out from 10-20nm.

When the bandit fires back it is as simple as pulling high Gs to move him from one gimbal to the other with lots of nose down, to bleed his missiles energy.

 

If I have done everything correctly my missile should reach him with approx 3-4 secs before his reaches me... leaving me to notch his incoming Fox or extend defensive.

But its all about altitude if your 1vs1 SARH (for me anyway).

 

Short story = Always do everything you can to get him INSIDE RTR before you fire (from an F-15), that way all his beaming nonsense isn't going to save him... because by the time I have him inside RTR... I can see his ass!...... bore mode FTW!

Edited June 9, 2012 by [Maverick]

[SgtPappy]

Is there a time frame for which I'd have to stay unlocked so that the R-27R's no longer become a threat? Also, I've looked everywhere, but apparently not hard enough. What does Rtr stand for? Range to... ? Thanks for the tip, Mav. Good thing I've got a climb advantage.

 

I played again and THIS time with the AI on excellent. We dodged EVERY single missile... even the -73's and -9M's until I had to take him down gunzo.

 

I hope the 80's week is going to kinda be like that.

 

EDIT: Actually provided I can flare everything that comes at me, just like I've been practising (if not in a furball) I shouldbe ok, right? :P

Edited June 9, 2012 by SgtPappy

[Mar]

;1479054']You fired an Aim 7... then notched a bandit for a few seconds then turned back into him to give your missile more guidance?

 

No... you didn't...

 

You're right, I didn't fire an Aim-7, I fired an Alamo (R-27ER) as I said in my post.

 

Your missile misses the bandit on the track by the way!

Track broken by mods.

 

Here is a tacview acmi.

Notice how I tried to get altitude on him but he always knew exactly how high I was despite my jammer being active.

One Shot One Kill.zip

[104th_Maverick]

RTR = Range Turn and Run

 

It's the point where even if the bandit turns round and starts running away from you the missile can still reach him.

If you brush up on your FC2 manual, you'll see how it all is displayed to you in your HUD and the radar screen ;)

 

Good luck!

 

Note:

Yes Mar, when someone is using ECM it is not hard to find out what alt they are at. In real life (online) you just lock the guy STT and 'look' at this alt compared to yours, however the ai.. seem to know where are all the time anyway.

 

About fighting bots to get better @ BVR and BFM

 

I exclusively practice against HUMANS. I never, never try new tricks out on bots... there is no point.

 

In a server all the dynamics are different, people make mistakes, humans are fallible. In single player your fighting a machine with a pre programmed set of actions based on its situation, MY OWN PERSONAL opinion is that SP will NOT make you a better online pilot.

I have people asking me all the time how I shot them down... because their tactic 'works on single player' ... and how did I manage to shoot them?

 

The reason is simple.. regardless of what ANYONE tells you on this forum. Fighting against bots is easy, fighting against humans is not.

 

I will just quickly qualify that, as I know this place is full of people just waiting to eat statements like that up.

 

Bots can be very very difficult to kill, my point is they are machines flying to set of rules. They cannot think for themselves, panic, get lucky or show initiative. Fighting against a HUMAN will give you all these things, fighting against someone who is fighting back and trying to fly in the future (his thought process of flying the aircraft) will make it much harder for you, and give you the ability to learn much faster.

Yes I concede 100% the bots use more real world tactics than most people you fight online however this will not set you up for MP because as I mentioned most people don't fly real world tactics, due to lack of interest or lack of knowledge.

 

Trust me... what works in Single Player most of the time doesn't work in Multiplayer..... find a buddy to train with and go at him... HARD!

 

You'll thank me for it in a few weeks if you step up to the MP scene!

 

I have never flown a single player mission in my life... I have also never tried to practice moves and techniques against bots in single player. All my experience comes from fighting real people online..... as a result I am very competent in the air against any opponent in BVR or BFM because I practice in the right sort of environment I do not have to rely on a certain set of skills that were exclusively honed against a bot.

Don't get me wrong you WILL die more fighting against people to try and get better... but you will learn much faster if your smart!

 

In a F-15 the key thing to remember sir is knowledge is power! It's great your goggling stuff to learn more... keep at it, any more questions that you can't answer on your own....

 

 

ask!

 

Good luck sir

 

S!

Edited June 10, 2012 by [Maverick]

[Novum]

Good post! =D

[SgtPappy]

I'm so lucky the F-15's got killer power and performance, otherwise I'd be in more trouble than usual!

 

Yes, thanks for the post Maverick. Pretty soon, I'm going to be setting my friends up and we'll all go fly and practise. For now we're having difficulty setting servers up. Anyway to check the version of the game? I've installed/uninstalled so many times, I don't know if I patched up.

[SgtPappy]

You're right, I didn't fire an Aim-7, I fired an Alamo (R-27ER) as I said in my post.

 

Track broken by mods.

 

Here is a tacview acmi.

Notice how I tried to get altitude on him but he always knew exactly how high I was despite my jammer being active.

 

Oh so I finally watched your video. You dodged AMRAAMs as easily as I hope to dodge R-73's! Well done indeed, Mar. :thumbup:

[SgtPappy]

Bump... 2 more questions after reading a little:

 

1) Another thing I didn't ask about were the jammers. I know that the ALQ-135's specs are classified for the most part, but does the F-15 maintain a good enough ECM defense vs. a Flanker at BVR ranges in this game to give itself an advantage?

 

2) I also read the manual for more things I could scrounge up, and it stated that flying faster meant that your missile would have more energy, but I've read more than one post in these forums stating that the game does NOT take the launch platform speed into account with regards to missile launch speed. So now I'm a little confused. What's the truth?

Edited June 13, 2012 by SgtPappy