SEAD fail - F18 on excellent enages with GUNS? (With track)

[Megagoth1702]

This does not seem right.

 

F18 with 2x AGM 88C is flying through the radar area of a SA8 osa, turns towards it and... Attempts a gun run? Really?

SEAD fail.trk

[maturin]

Might the tiny range of an Osa be within the minimum for comfortable employment of AGM-88s? Might as well just smack it with a Maverick.

[Megagoth1702]

Look at the track. Nah man, it should lock on as soon as it get's the radar warning. And when the OSA is acitvely tracking/locking nobody can tell me you can't shoot an AGM88C at a steady beam of radar... It's an AI bug.

[GGTharos]

ARMs currently have a very simple implementation, and the AI uses them in a very simple manner. You can expect only minor improvements at best right now.

[Megagoth1702]

Thank you.

But is the F18 attempting a gun run is acceptable?

[Speed]

Thank you.

But is the F18 attempting a gun run is acceptable?

 

No, it's not, but GG's point is- AI is not very smart. AI is a tremendous programming challenge, and you should not expect major improvements in short order. Expect the slow and steady improvements over the past years to continue.

 

As far as guns go: AI has always been WAY too gung-ho with air-to-ground gun use. I am a mission builder too, and long ago I learned to REMOVE ALL GUN AMMO from ALL air-to-ground AI aircraft in high-threat environments, at least in the cases where I am allowing the AI to select their own targets, and I am not specifying which weapons they should use. This is especially true for SEAD aircraft!

 

And like already mentioned, if you use triggered/waypoint actions, you can actually specify which weapons they should use.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Speed

[Megagoth1702]

Thanks.

 

But... But... :( The task is SEAD and it has perfectly fine HARM missiles under it... :(

 

I don't believe it.

 

I will try removing the ammo. A nasty workaround but... If it works, what the hell.

[Speed]

Thanks.

 

But... But... :( The task is SEAD and it has perfectly fine HARM missiles under it... :(

 

I don't believe it.

 

I will try removing the ammo. A nasty workaround but... If it works, what the hell.

 

Actually, it doesn't work. I'm investigating, I'll let you know what I find.

 

Edit: it's a problem with the SA-8. Apparently, guns were the only weapon they had loaded that could engage the SA-8 (give the people some Mavericks!). It could be that the SA-8 search radar mode is not detectable by the AI's Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM)? There was a recent bug fixed where AI were able to engage radars with ARMs that they shouldn't be able to engage with ARMs (apparently, not all radars can be engaged with ARMs- some search radars apparently operate in the wrong band). Who knows, maybe this is related somehow.

 

Switch the SAM to an SA-15 and they will engage it with HARMs. Or give them Mavericks, and they will use those.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Speed

[maturin]

The willingness of AI to dash into target zones full of AAA and SAMs in fanatical fulfillment of their waypoints and attack orders is a general problem.

 

In the campaign, every time I tell my wingman to attack air defenses with, he rushes across the entire AO to his death, never even attempting to use his standoff Vikhrs until it's too late.

 

Does the AI have any conception of the range of his weapons versus the kill zones of known threats. This kind of decision can take place in two-dimensional space and should therefore NOT be difficult to accomplish.

[Megagoth1702]

:( Sorry, but there is no exuse for THIS.

 

Obviously something in the AI is totally borked. An OSA should be recognized as a radar threat. Also I told the F18 to attack the group with ARMs.

 

It should work.

 

 

EDIT: Oh, there have been some posts while I was recording the track and posthing this post.

 

Yes, it seems to be broken.

 

I will try to use the SU25T's SEAD stuff. If the SU25T can lock onto the SA8 the F18 with HARMS should be able to do that as well.

 

@Mavericks - a dedicated SEAD flight should not have mavericks, should it? :-/

 

 

EDIT2: Su 25 T has no issues engaging the SA 8.

seadFail2.trk

su25CanLockOn.trk

Edited December 3, 2012 by Megagoth1702

[EtherealN]

A SEAD flight can have whatever is practical towards suppressing air defences.

 

NOTE: the "SEAD" mission is not "DEAD". If you get the other guy to turn off his radar or simply hide, that's a successful SEAD mission. However, the AI does not have good technique so in-game "SEAD" tends to actually be "DEAD".

 

Also note that the inability of HARM to home on the SA-8 radar does not mean other equipment cannot. They always have to discriminate (otherwise they'd home on everything that emits light... and don't you dare operate a radio station, HAM or microwave oven etcetera) and will by how they're built see different things. I am however not sure if this would be the reason why the AGM-88 can't see it but the T-frog's equipment can.

Edited December 3, 2012 by EtherealN

[Megagoth1702]

Huh, I never thought of it this way. Thanks. I will stick mavericks onto them from now on.

 

EDIT:... which works FLAWLESSLY against Sa-8.

 

Still, using ARMs should be possible as well.

[EtherealN]

Anti-Radiation missiles do the darndest things, btw:

 

The Wild Weasel immediately detected the B-52 tail gun radar and misidentified the radar signature as that of an Iraqi anti aircraft artillery (AAA) site. The Wild Weasel crew fired a HARM missile and watched in horror as it headed not towards the non existent Iraqi AAA site, but to the very B-52 is was trying to protect.

 

http://bentcorner.com/in-harms-way/

[Megagoth1702]

Anti-Radiation missiles do the darndest things, btw:

 

 

 

http://bentcorner.com/in-harms-way/

 

Holy shit.:helpsmilie:

[sorcer3r]

Huh, I never thought of it this way. Thanks. I will stick mavericks onto them from now on.

 

EDIT:... which works FLAWLESSLY against Sa-8.

 

Still, using ARMs should be possible as well.

 

Yes. IMO there is no need for a HARM against a Sa-8.

Only if you dont know its postion exactly or/and you are ambushed by them.

So maybe there is a need for (H)ARMs... ;)

[Megagoth1702]

F18 should still be able to engage the SA8 with HARM. No matter if it's appropriate or not. I am very shure that it is possible. Especially since the russian missiles can do it. USA are always about their fancy technology so I guess the AGM88C can lock onto a SA8.

 

An AI bug still.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Megagoth1702

[GGTharos]

I believe you are correct, but like people mentioned, AI is a complex issue.

 

The reality is that AI in DCS needs a pretty substantial overhaul which is a very huge undertaking and can't happen right now.

[Megagoth1702]

I read somewhere that it uses rather unknown and complex mathematics in order to calculate the artificial stupidity. :D

[maturin]

Realistically, does the presence of an OSA even warrant sending out a HARM-bearing fast mover?

 

If you know where AAA is, you can kill it with Mavs. If you don't, then an F-16 will be moving so fast that it will run right into the kill zone as soon as the mud spike shows up, leaving precious little time to launch that missile and escape. Seems like short range AAA can't pose to much threat to a non-CAS mission anyways.

[sorcer3r]

..., leaving precious little time to launch that missile and escape.

 

Enough time for the wingman if he is good enough. ;)

[Wags]

This has been fixed and should be in the next update.

[Megagoth1702]

Thank you very much Wags.