Kh-58 and 25MPU

[GGTharos]

Lockon's SAM AI has no self-protection measures, correct.

 

They don't try to do anything about being shot at, and they don't try to be evasive at all.

 

Same for the rest of the ground AI.

[GGTharos]

You're partially correct. The antenna needs to be "matched" to the wavelength that you're trying to receive, but there are plenty of ways around physical size of the antenna itself. I used to have a Kenwood dual band HAM radio, it was a handheld. The antenna was about 4.5 inches long. I could transmit and receive on the 2 meter band with that short little antenna. The quick and dirty explanation (and the fact that I haven't done it in so long that I'm rusty) is that you can wrap 2 meters of wire around the shaft of that antenna. I'm far from being a radio guru, but that's just basic radio tech.

 

 

Right, but how far apart do you need to space two such antennae to get a reliable, accurate bearing to the source of transmission? ;)

[Gazehound]

IRL sam systems are linked to a wide network of radars, so that when a SAM turns on it is when the A/C is right inside it's WEZ. Sadly it is not modelled, although it is written about in the 1.1 manual as if it is.

'The other game' models it quite well.

[Yellonet]

Lockon's SAM AI has no self-protection measures, correct.

 

They don't try to do anything about being shot at, and they don't try to be evasive at all.

 

Same for the rest of the ground AI.

I am aware of that, but what I meant was, is it realistic that we (in the Su-25T) can perfectly pinpoint EWR radars?

[GGTharos]

Oh, sorry.

 

I couldn't tell you. The Antennae on teh aircraft might be spaced far enough apart to allow it, but that's just a guess on my part.

 

Either way, I don't think it would really 'pinpoint' it either, but you wouldn't see this until you got really, REALLY close and at the correct altitude.

 

Certainly, the diamond/box/whatever would be centered on the antenna if anything, or more likely it would 'walk' all over the antenna, rather than being centered anywhere near the truck :)

[Yellonet]

Oh, sorry.

 

I couldn't tell you. The Antennae on teh aircraft might be spaced far enough apart to allow it, but that's just a guess on my part.

 

Either way, I don't think it would really 'pinpoint' it either, but you wouldn't see this until you got really, REALLY close and at the correct altitude.

 

Certainly, the diamond/box/whatever would be centered on the antenna if anything, or more likely it would 'walk' all over the antenna, rather than being centered anywhere near the truck :)

Then I would like this fixed for 1.2 ;) Going on EWR hunts would be much more fun if you had to work a little to find it.

[GGTharos]

You won't have to work to find it - the direction will be good.

 

Ideally what you WILL have to do however, is work to destroy it. Such assets are usually well protected.

[Yellonet]

You won't have to work to find it - the direction will be good.

 

Ideally what you WILL have to do however, is work to destroy it. Such assets are usually well protected.

Ok. So you're saying that in the game we wont have to work to find the EWR, but IRL they couldn't find it without getting a tip.

In the game you pinpoint the station the moment you get in range of the radar, but in real life they apparently couldn't pinpoint the EWR because it wasn't on all the time... So apparently it should take some time to pinpoint the station, no?

[GGTharos]

No, you'd find it IRL. You just can't aim your ARMs at it reliably. The target reticle will probably be 'hanging in the air', on the antenna, and not on the truck - the antenna itself may actually be hard to spot visually.

 

Also, if the EWR is on for 20 seconds, and then off, you had better gotten turned directly onto the heading that signal came from, and flown it VERY accurately for some 100km, or you'll miss it by quite a bit.

 

1 degree at 100km is about 1700 meters. You're not likely to get that accurate a reading from that far off, and you'll probably run into enough disturbances in the air to be a few degrees off when you arrive. AND you don't know the range to boot.

 

Even more likely, by the time you get over the 'target area', evenif you got it quite right, that radar may be some 20km away (it's on wheels) or camouflaged so well you'll never see it.

 

That's the problem.

 

Anyway, I understand what you're asking for now. I don't know if we'll see it in 1.2. I've been asking for this for a while now.

[Yellonet]

No, you'd find it IRL. You just can't aim your ARMs at it reliably. The target reticle will probably be 'hanging in the air', on the antenna, and not on the truck - the antenna itself may actually be hard to spot visually.

"We did have one big success when we teamed Block 40 and Block 50 on an early

warning radar in Montenegro. This particular early warning radar was a problem

through most of the war. When we got a tip where it was located, we had a Block

50 F-16 go in and shoot a HARM at it. The HARM hit real close and did some

damage. Then a pilot in a Block 40 used his targeting pod to drop an LGB on the

site to completely destroy it."

 

That, to me, sounds like they couldn't pinpoint it.

 

Also, if the EWR is on for 20 seconds, and then off, you had better gotten turned directly onto the heading that signal came from, and flown it VERY accurately for some 100km, or you'll miss it by quite a bit.

 

1 degree at 100km is about 1700 meters. You're not likely to get that accurate a reading from that far off, and you'll probably run into enough disturbances in the air to be a few degrees off when you arrive. AND you don't know the range to boot.

Exactly! But in LockOn you get a diamond exactly where the EWR is so even if the turn it off it's still easy to remember the spot. So you are saying that this is incorrectly modelled in the game?

 

Even more likely, by the time you get over the 'target area', evenif you got it quite right, that radar may be some 20km away (it's on wheels) or camouflaged so well you'll never see it.

But if it's a big radar it might take some time to dismount.

 

That's the problem.

 

Anyway, I understand what you're asking for now. I don't know if we'll see it in 1.2. I've been asking for this for a while now.

Now we're on the same wavelength ;)

[GGTharos]

"We did have one big success when we teamed Block 40 and Block 50 on an early

warning radar in Montenegro. This particular early warning radar was a problem

through most of the war. When we got a tip where it was located, we had a Block

50 F-16 go in and shoot a HARM at it. The HARM hit real close and did some

damage. Then a pilot in a Block 40 used his targeting pod to drop an LGB on the

site to completely destroy it."

 

That, to me, sounds like they couldn't pinpoint it.

 

More details needed here:

 

The problem was that they'd get spikes, and then the spikes would be gone, and they had no ESM aircraft coordinating a triangulation (otherwise they'd have spotted it quickly) and in addition, I know that one of the EWRs was a GIraffe, and another radar they used as an EWR was an SA-6 SR. BOTH are fast to deploy and stow and are -highly- mobile. So, even if you 'pinpoint' one, it may be quite far by the time you get there in the case of those radars.

 

Exactly! But in LockOn you get a diamond exactly where the EWR is so even if the turn it off it's still easy to remember the spot. So you are saying that this is incorrectly modelled in the game?

 

No. What is incorrectly modelled is lack of stuff that you'd have to go through to get to it ;)

You can remember the spot, but the spot may well be 200km away. In practice I don't think an EWR would be emitting if you pushed in like that. it would be concealed and might escape detection.

[Yellonet]

More details needed here:

 

The problem was that they'd get spikes, and then the spikes would be gone, and they had no ESM aircraft coordinating a triangulation (otherwise they'd have spotted it quickly) and in addition, I know that one of the EWRs was a GIraffe, and another radar they used as an EWR was an SA-6 SR. BOTH are fast to deploy and stow and are -highly- mobile. So, even if you 'pinpoint' one, it may be quite far by the time you get there in the case of those radars.

So why didn't they *just* put up some planes with the capability to triangulate the signal... after all they had trouble with that EWR 'throughout most of the war'.

 

No. What is incorrectly modelled is lack of stuff that you'd have to go through to get to it ;)

Like....? You're tormenting me... only giving me something small at a time :(

 

You can remember the spot, but the spot may well be 200km away. In practice I don't think an EWR would be emitting if you pushed in like that. it would be concealed and might escape detection.

The huge EWR's in LockOn doesn't have that range...

[Guest ruggbutt]

Right, but how far apart do you need to space two such antennae to get a reliable, accurate bearing to the source of transmission? ;)

I have a feeling that alot of that is related to software and computer related stuff. I couldn't tell you anything about any of that. ;)

 

I was merely commenting on the wavelength/antenna issue.

[GGTharos]

So why didn't they *just* put up some planes with the capability to triangulate the signal... after all they had trouble with that EWR 'throughout most of the war'.

 

Like I said. HIGHLY MOBILE ;)

The distances weren't exactly small either, and aircraft were typicallyt asked to do work where that EWR was not, and it wasn't worth it keeping one on-station there. It seems that somehow the targets had a clue when they were being hunted.

 

Like....? You're tormenting me... only giving me something small at a time :(

 

My point is, it would likely be well defended.

 

The huge EWR's in LockOn doesn't have that range...

 

It likely has more range in real life than anyone will admit to. Regardless, you can detect it much farther than it will detect you at.

 

Anyway, if strategy/tactical decision capabilities are programmed into the AI at some point, you'll get your wish.

[Yellonet]

Like I said. HIGHLY MOBILE ;)

The distances weren't exactly small either, and aircraft were typicallyt asked to do work where that EWR was not, and it wasn't worth it keeping one on-station there. It seems that somehow the targets had a clue when they were being hunted.

Sounds like you were there.... maybe?

 

My point is, it would likely be well defended.

At least that can be done in the game.

 

It likely has more range in real life than anyone will admit to. Regardless, you can detect it much farther than it will detect you at.

Very true... and not modeled in the game.. for some reason.

 

Anyway, if strategy/tactical decision capabilities are programmed into the AI at some point, you'll get your wish.

That day will be oh so happy! YAY!

[SwingKid]

According to WAPJ, another problem with targeting the low-frequency EW radars was that ordinary terrain becomes ever more reflective at lower frequency. So, the reciver antennas are receiving EW signals from a wide area. An SA-3 officer later confirmed that they were aware their low-frequency search radar could not be targeted by HARM.

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

According to WAPJ, another problem with targeting the low-frequency EW radars was that ordinary terrain becomes ever more reflective at lower frequency. So, the reciver antennas are receiving EW signals from a wide area. An SA-3 officer later confirmed that they were aware their low-frequency search radar could not be targeted by HARM.

 

-SK

 

Nice one SK - you're talking about the Serb officer whose battery shot down the F-117?

 

I forgot about the reflection, which is pretty important. Thanks.

[Yellonet]

According to WAPJ, another problem with targeting the low-frequency EW radars was that ordinary terrain becomes ever more reflective at lower frequency. So, the reciver antennas are receiving EW signals from a wide area. An SA-3 officer later confirmed that they were aware their low-frequency search radar could not be targeted by HARM.

 

-SK

Yeah...I'm no expert but that's why long range radio signals use low frequency carrier waves - it bounces off of the atmosphere and back down, otherwise radio would be line of sight.

 

I wonder how exactly that attack that were mentioned in the pdf were conducted if the HARM couldn't target the radar... or maybe it was another type of radar.

[GGTharos]

It was either a Giraffe or an SA-6SR, both of which can be targeted by the HARM. Neither of those uses particularely low frequencies AFAIK.

[GGTharos]

Sounds like you were there.... maybe?

 

No. But, I did read A-10's over Kosovo ;)

[Guest ruggbutt]

Great book!