Mighty amraam not so mighty in real life?

[Kelju_K]

Hah! i could have swore that the "it must have been a dud" comes up. LOL!

If you watched the hole video (or the missle part of it) you would have noticed that it took 3 missles to get the mig. (-"at 5 miles i shot my third missle, another amraam..")

 

And i have the U-turn on track file, i just need to dig it up and i will post it here. have more of the super maneuverability behaviour on track files as well, seems that i have to do some digging.

 

It makes me wonder how on earth the 120 got out that "bad" in the first place? cant you beta testers get splashes without it being so uber? Or are you just looking things trough "star and stripes goggles"? Right now getting kills with the 120 doesnt require any piloting skills what so ever

 

Yesterday at 104th server i was schooling a noob countryman of mine who had no idea of anything really (3rd or 4th time online!!!) and he was 3rd in the stats, splashing experienced flanker pilots (after i told him only when to launch and when to extend!) with the F-15! I mean C'MON! is this really how the game is supposed to be??? Is that all that is required from an Eagle pilot to gets kills?

 

P.S.

Sorry Joonas if i dissed you here, i had to bring this up, to make a point :(

[Teknetinium]

You're wrong. Recent kills are almost all done with missiles, and there were few dogfights.

 

What's the point in spending money on BVR missiles if all you'll achieve is getting into a merge?

 

Not that far of I would assume, since most of them have been in visual range.

If that Serbian MIG-29 pilots had as many buddies as the F-15 pilot Im sure there would be a merge.

 

Credits, for those Serbian brave pilots who had to do it, If the American pilot cant discribe the butterfly's think about the Serbian pilot whit no RWR EOS or radar working..

Edited January 10, 2013 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

Hah! i could have swore that the "it must have been a dud" comes up. LOL!

If you watched the hole video (or the missle part of it) you would have noticed that it took 3 missles to get the mig. (-"at 5 miles i shot my third missle, another amraam..")

 

He shot a 120, then a 7, then a 120. If the first 120 was notched, there's really not that much surprise in the 7 missing right after that - it was a shot taken in poor parameters or with the bandit close to putting it in poor paramters, but it was taken to keep the bandit defensive.

 

And i have the U-turn on track file, i just need to dig it up and i will post it here. have more of the super maneuverability behaviour on track files as well, seems that i have to do some digging.

 

If it is an actual U-turn then I bet it's an online track, and in that case that is an MP code artifact. The missile on the client-side that launched it did not do a U-turn.

 

It makes me wonder how on earth the 120 got out that "bad" in the first place? cant you beta testers get splashes without it being so uber? Or are you just looking things trough "star and stripes goggles"? Right now getting kills with the 120 doesnt require any piloting skills what so ever

 

I already told you I can dodge 120's all day long. 77's too. All you need is a bunch of knowledge and the right habits ... so perhaps you should be the one to stop looking at this through 'don't know what I'm doing' goggles.

Any number of people here who know how to notch will tell you that AIM-120's are quite notchable in this sim.

 

Yesterday at 104th server i was schooling a noob countryman of mine who had no idea of anything really (3rd or 4th time online!!!) and he was 3rd in the stats, splashing experienced flanker pilots (after i told him only when to launch and when to extend!) with the F-15! I mean C'MON! is this really how the game is supposed to be??? Is that all that is required from an Eagle pilot to gets kills?

 

What does 'experienced flanker pilots' mean, other than they've been playing the game for a while? Nothing, zip, squat, zilch, nada. Skilled flanker pilots would have notched or otherwise evaded those missiles. If all you're doing is launching and then at some point extending, that's an easy-to-defeat missile the vast majority of the time.

 

And yes, this is all that's required from an eagle pilot to get kills if the opposing pilot is willing to intercept the eagle pilot's missiles :)

[GGTharos]

Yeah sure, if you have enough planes you can force a merge. So what? If your guys get cut down in BVR before the merge, what good does the merge do you? Ok, you bagged an F-15 or two. They've shot down your squadron.

 

The problem is that your assumptions lack the basic understanding of the combat exchange metric. It's very simple: It means that you will lose x of your planes to y of their planes. Air forces have various ways of calculating those metrics and the exchange ratios don't normally favor migs - and why? Because the F-15 will have the BVR superiority.

 

Not that far of I would assume, since most of them have been in visual range.

If that Serbian MIG-29 pilots had as many buddies as the F-15 pilot Im sure there would be a merge.

 

Credits, for those brave pilots who had to do it.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

In Serbia 1999 the hit rate of amraam was 12:1 ...

This is very interesting info. Where did you find it?

[GGTharos]

He made it up.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

...truth is the Aim120 has not seen combat aginst a well trained, organised and equpied airforce..... which was willing to fight

Serbian Air Force in 1999 was in bad shape, with very little training and very poorly equipped. MiG-29' flew with SPO-15 not working.

 

Thus if AMRAAM's performed so poorly in 1999, that really puts a serious question mark on the use of ARH missiles.

[Haukka81]

These missile is too good/too bad people make me sad.

 

No one of us will ever fly real fighter and shoot real missiles so what hell is wrong with you all ?

[Kelju_K]

you're just doing it wrong.

 

It's not about doing it right or wrong. It's about me refusing to believe that there is no way to evade the amraam while maintaining the lock. And i will never believe that being the case. That's why i have been experimenting, only to find a "hole" in the holiness of the spamraams dynamics.

 

I could extend when i get the warning of the missle gone active, Or just brake the lock and notch, then reaquire you and try to engage again like other veteran flanker pilots do. Or i could just lurk in the valleys trying to find you with eos. I'm not that stupid!!! doh..

like i said, its not about that with me right now.

 

It just not rewarding at any level to have to brake the lock or extend every time you are lauched at with amraam. And that is, what i understand, the reason why most of the 51st guys are not flying much now. (sorry if i spoke on your behalf here, correct me if im wrong)

 

We all. even us, the ruski plane pilots want the game to be exiting. Right now it's far from that...

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kelju_K

[USAFMTL]

Where the sim end and the game begins?

 

We could probably agree that definition of a game is if there are no real world consequences for action taken. If you don't die in simulation for action taken, which would result in death in RL, then sorry, it's a game. End of story.

 

And how we simulate physical stress on virtual pilots? ;) I bet that 95% of virtual pilots couldn't do 20 push ups and majority couldn't put on G suit because of overweight issue. Pulling 9G's? :megalol: Mental stress?

 

So yes, DCSW is first and foremost GAME, albeit very realistic one.

 

All missiles are unrealistic - it's impossible to make them realistic, software on them is higlhy classified on both sides, so devs are left with obsolete manuals, media reports and testimony from pilots participating in wars fought against 3rd world country airforces with obsolete technology.

 

Reallity? :no:

 

You missed the point completely. End of story.

[EtherealN]

If you watched the hole video (or the missle part of it) you would have noticed that it took 3 missles to get the mig. (-"at 5 miles i shot my third missle, another amraam..")

 

Is your claim that this is a typical engagement?

What has been claimed is that there's tonnes of things that might have happened, including (but not limited to) malfunction.

 

Also, AIM-120A != AIM-120B/C

 

And i have the U-turn on track file, i just need to dig it up and i will post it here. have more of the super maneuverability behaviour on track files as well, seems that i have to do some digging.

 

Multiplayer?

Strange things happen in multiplayer that have nothing to do with the missile as simulated, and everything to do with network latencies, dropped packets etcetera. What you see in an MP track is not necessarily what happened.

 

It makes me wonder how on earth the 120 got out that "bad" in the first place? cant you beta testers get splashes without it being so uber? Or are you just looking things trough "star and stripes goggles"? Right now getting kills with the 120 doesnt require any piloting skills what so ever

 

I advice you to stop with the polemics. Eagle Dynamics is a russian company, staffed by (mainly) russians and belarussians. Volunteer testers come from all kinds of nationalities and Americans are, from what I recall, a minority. So please drop that now.

 

Getting kills online with the 120 requires skill - if the guy you are shooting at has skill. However, online, there's all kinds of people flying, including people with absolutely no clue about how to defeat an active missile. Your complaint is then with the extremely varied skill of opponents you meet on open servers. Nothing else. (May I remind you that R-77 has the same seeker and the same warhead?)

 

Yesterday at 104th server i was schooling a noob countryman of mine who had no idea of anything really (3rd or 4th time online!!!) and he was 3rd in the stats, splashing experienced flanker pilots (after i told him only when to launch and when to extend!) with the F-15! I mean C'MON! is this really how the game is supposed to be??? Is that all that is required from an Eagle pilot to gets kills?

 

"Experience Flanker pilots" make mistakes as well, but I note you told him when to fire - so you were wing lead, he was wingman, and he followed your lead. That right there is a big deal. Things go a LOT better for me if I have a good wing lead. ;)

 

In the end, your problem here is that you are using an extremely limited dataset as the basis of judging a whole weapon system. Not kosher unfortunately.

[danilop]

Not that far of I would assume, since most of them have been in visual range.

If that Serbian MIG-29 pilots had as many buddies as the F-15 pilot Im sure there would be a merge.

 

Credits, for those Serbian brave pilots who had to do it, If the American pilot cant discribe the butterfly's think about the Serbian pilot whit no RWR EOS or radar working..

 

They were flying blind due to ECM and unbelievable numbers of jammers firing from all around Serbia during early stages of Operation Allied Force. The only clue was from GCI, and that was shut down within couple of days. ECCM were non existent. Radar on MiGs was blocked, Beryoza completely inoperable. Getting into the air was suicidal, for obvious reasons. R27 couldn't get a lock, so our pilots were trying to get within WVR arena and fire those heat seekers (a couple of R73, mainly old R60).

 

Missile evasion was completely done by MK I Eyeball method (mind you, no lock warning, no radar warning, nothing - SPO15 were dead due to poor maintenance and electronics warfare going on) - you see incoming AMRAAM and evade.

 

And all of MiG 29 pilots participating in '99 war were A-A inexperienced.

 

In those circumstances, I think that (arguably,of course :lol:) confirmed 12:1, or whatever AMRAAM ratio is, well ... average at best.

Edited January 10, 2013 by danilop

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

He made it up.

Well, we had a MiG-29 pilot testifying avoiding several missiles. He did not mention which missiles were launched at him. And Yugoslavian Airforce was actively flying in the beginning of the conflict. In the first few days, KLA was defeated and there was no much need for Yugoslavian air force to fly much any more. Obviously it could not fly against numerically stronger NATO air force. By pure numbers, NATO had an advantage of 8 to 1 over Yugoslavia.

 

Thus, I assume a lots of AA missiles were fired. I just wonder how many were AMRAAM's.

 

SAM = Stealth STOP!

[GGTharos]

It's not about doing it right or wrong. It's about me refusing to believe that there is no way to evade the amraam while maintaining the lock. And i will never believe that being the case. That's why i have been experimenting, only to find a "hole" in the holiness of the spamraams dynamics.

 

What you choose to believe does not matter, just to be clear. If you don't want to be in the notch, and you're close enough to the missile, you're going to eat the missile. You're being a cooperative target, period, end of story.

We know that the ER is not performing as well as it should right now, which is a problem, but you can pretty much forget about having superiority or even parity in a straight-up no-giving-up-lock joust vs. an AMRAAM equipped aircraft.

 

It just not rewarding at any level to have to brake the lock or extend every time you are lauched at with amraam if you want to be safe. And that is, what i understand, the reason why most of the 51st guys are not flying much now. (sorry if i spoke on your behalf here, correct me if im wrong)

 

We all. even us, the ruski plane pilots want the game to be exiting. Right now it's far from that...

 

What's not exciting? The fact that you have to work for that kill? The fact that you need to use teamwork and if possible outnumber the eagles or otherwise force some bandit psychology on them?

 

They have actives, you do not. You're at a disadvantage, and that is how it will be until someone models at least a Su-27SM.

 

But here, let me tell you what's making things really bad for you in this beta:

 

1) The missiles are still being tuned, so you might be getting less legs out of the 27ER than you should be (as an example).

2) You don't have the new Su-27 3D model yet. This is a big deal, because it makes you visible quite far away, while you can't see the other guy. This means he can re-attack you very easily if you're both forced to break away.

 

Once those two things get taken care of (and possibly another thing that I won't be going into for now), you should find your plane a bit more dangerous.

[GGTharos]

The total number of AIM-120 firings (not just in that conflict) is 16, or close to that number and I do recall that you were aware of this. THe Pk from all those shots is about 60%. You tell me how that amounts to 12:1.

 

Thus, I assume a lots of AA missiles were fired. I just wonder how many were AMRAAM's.

[GGTharos]

It isn't even arguable, it's just a reality-challenged statement :D

 

In those circumstances, I think that (arguably,of course :lol:) confirmed 12:1 AMRAAM ratio is, well ... average.

[USAFMTL]

The total number of AIM-120 firings (not just in that conflict) is 16, or close to that number and I do recall that you were aware of this. THe Pk from all those shots is about 60%. You tell me how that amounts to 12:1.

 

More were fired than that in test/eval. Or are you not counting that?

[GGTharos]

No, I am only counting known combat shots and confirmed combat hits.

 

I'm aware that many more have been fired in tests, but my stats on those are just high Pk numbers, except for the initial tests that delayed integration with the F-15 :)

[danilop]

AMRAAM PK is much more than 60% in the game ATM ...

[USAFMTL]

No, I am only counting known combat shots and confirmed combat hits.

 

I'm aware that many more have been fired in tests, but my stats on those are just high Pk numbers, except for the initial tests that delayed integration with the F-15 :)

 

I thought that was the case.

[USAFMTL]

AMRAAM PK is much more than 60% in the game ATM ...

 

Really? I was say its lower than that. AIM-9M is even worse.

[blkspade]

There is a way to do it, as I have figured out offline against the R-77 and repeated with great success. If the seeker is in deed the same as the 120 then it would probably work with it as well. I am usually not being bold enough to try it online, and due to how you have to do it its probably not going to work against most F-15 pilots anyway. Further more, the nature of how typical Russian flyers engage, means most of them won't figure it out either. I have only shared it with one other soul.

 

It's not about doing it right or wrong. It's about me refusing to believe that there is no way to evade the amraam while maintaining the lock. And i will never believe that being the case. That's why i have been experimenting, only to find a "hole" in the holiness of the spamraams dynamics.

 

I could extend when i get the warning of the missle gone active, Or just brake the lock and notch, then reaquire you and try to engage again like other veteran flanker pilots do. Or i could just lurk in the valleys trying to find you with eos. I'm not that stupid!!! doh..

like i said, its not about that with me right now.

 

It just not rewarding at any level to have to brake the lock or extend every time you are lauched at with amraam. And that is, what i understand, the reason why most of the 51st guys are not flying much now. (sorry if i spoke on your behalf here, correct me if im wrong)

 

We all. even us, the ruski plane pilots want the game to be exiting. Right now it's far from that...

[danilop]

AIM-9M is even worse.

 

It should be worse :P

[GGTharos]

Really? I tend to expend 3 missiles per target, because they'll dodge the initial shots and often without trying much, either. I need to keep firing just to keep them defensive so they can't return effective fire. Every now and then I run into someone who's chasing someone else and they're so intent to doing that that they ignore the missile warning ... but in all those cases, I could get almost just as high a Pk with an AIM-7.

 

Are you looking through 'I-fear-the-AMRAAM' tinted goggles there?

 

AMRAAM PK is much more than 60% in the game ATM ...

[Sov13t]

Really? I tend to expend 3 missiles per target

 

Oh noes that is a .33 PK!!! Need betterer missilez! :megalol:

 

jk