F15c missile evasion/engaging questions.

[Shevvie]

Hi, I'm new to combat sims and decided to buy into the DCS World starting with FC3. So far I've managed to fumble my way through but I've hit a problem when it comes to missile detection and evasion.

 

I can be flying along and then I get hit except I've not been given any kind of indication that I can tell at any rate that I've been fired upon. Is there something I'm missing here or doing wrong? I've tried using the ECM function but I'm not even 100% sure what that does.

 

My next question is how come sometimes I fly past my missiles? I always wait until the red lights in the cockpit light up before u fire, now and again though I fly past missiles that have barely gone anywhere. Is it just the rocket motor burning out or is it something I'm doing wrong with the radar?

 

Sorry I'm not up on my technical terms yet as this is the first flight sim I've really got stuck into or trying atleast. So far it looks great and I have already had a good few hours of enjoyment and horror. (my landings were were white knuckle for a few days :D)

[Gunja]

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/a2a.htm

 

You will find many answers there.

[Shevvie]

Thanks for the reply Gunja. I'll look into these when I get home from work.

[Exorcet]

IR missiles (AIM-9P, AIM-9M, R-27T, R-27ET, R-60, R-73) give no launch warning. You were probably hit by one of them.

 

Your RWR also have blind spots, if a radar missile is in one of the blind spots, it won't give a warning.

 

As for you flying past your missile, the missile physics need some fixing, which is coming in the next patch, but besides that make sure that you fire at the little green dot on the HUD. This is the path the missile must take to fly most efficiently. If you don't fire at the dot, the missile will have to turn hard to catch the target which could cause it to lose all of its speed.

[BRooDJeRo]

Dogfighting: The WW1 manual.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIM_5uRKavQ

Edited January 24, 2013 by BRooDJeRo

[Shevvie]

IR missiles (AIM-9P, AIM-9M, R-27T, R-27ET, R-60, R-73) give no launch warning. You were probably hit by one of them.

 

Your RWR also have blind spots, if a radar missile is in one of the blind spots, it won't give a warning.

 

As for you flying past your missile, the missile physics need some fixing, which is coming in the next patch, but besides that make sure that you fire at the little green dot on the HUD. This is the path the missile must take to fly most efficiently. If you don't fire at the dot, the missile will have to turn hard to catch the target which could cause it to lose all of its speed.

 

Thanks, that explains me getting hit without warning and my dummy missiles. How do you counter the IR missiles or is the only defense visual confirmation?

 

I know FC3 is like the baby step into this sim but damn I love the depth that this has. I'm going to check out all of these video's when I get home tonight.

[Exorcet]

IR missiles are more sensitive to counter measures than radar missiles. The only way to confirm a launch is visual, but once you get within a certain range from the enemy, you're going to want to assume that they will launch IR missiles on you. Dump flares even if you don't see a missile coming and be careful with the afterburner.

 

The R-27T and ET are the only IR missiles with significant range. All the others are purely dogfight missiles. T/ET are only carried by the Su-27/30 and MiG-29. The have less range than the AIM-7 or AIM-120 so as long as you find the enemy first you won't have to worry about IR missiles immediately. When the distance between you and the enemy closes to about 10 miles, you need to be on the look out for T or ET missiles. Within about 5 miles, R-73 and the rest become an issue. The R-73 is the most dangerous, never get close enough to be shot at with one unless you have flares.

[Eihort]

IR missile warnings -sometimes- give you a warning if the guy locked you with his radar first to get a range. But then it might just be a lock or scan warning. However, the 29 and 27 have that IRST system where they don't even need that if they can catch you on it. Your only defense is to be aware of what's behind you. As stated before, if you get close to someone, assume they've got passive IR missiles on you and launch flares, ESPECIALLY at the merge.

 

ECM only seems to serve a use in multiplayer against aircraft. What's modeled in the game is called a 'noise jammer'. Essentially, it generates a lot of noise in different frequencies so that radars can't get an accurate range. Problem is, EVERYONE knows you're doing it, and what direction you are. It is completely possible for someone to see your ECM signal LONG before they would normally detect you otherwise. F-15s see a verical bar with empty squares in it the length of the scope. 27/29 sees a line of static. Some missiles are designed to home in on this signal, but the attacker is guessing if their missile will have enough range.

 

At some point, even the radars realize what's going on, and get "burn through". The other guys will clearly see your dot in the middle of that noise, and can lock/launch weapons with impunity. When you're returning to base, generally turn ECM off as your own guys will not know if you're friendly or enemy right away.

[Shevvie]

Thanks for all this info. Soon I should be a lean mean missile dodging machine!Still getting used to the idea of moving the radar scan to hunt for targets but I'm getting there.

 

Interestingly me and a friend both flying F-15Cs decided to have a little 1 on 1 at low altitude. Flying through canyons and hugging the mountains at fairly high speed I noticed that missiles were pretty much useless. I'm guessing the mountains were screwing with the radar and heat signatures because they would just drift off. He never once popped a flare either and it was great fun closing in pushing the plane to get a gun kill.

[EtherealN]

Some missiles are designed to home in on this signal, but the attacker is guessing if their missile will have enough range.

 

Depends on his math skills.

1) Lock on jam source.

2) Observe position on HUD ladder.

3) Descend or climb a couple angels.

4) Observe position on HUD ladder.

5) You now have (very) approximate range to target.

 

(This is simple enough an algorithm that I wouldn't be surprised if real fighters have a radar mode that does this for the pilot, and paired with datalinks and HI/LO packages, you could even do it without maneuvering...)

Edited January 27, 2013 by EtherealN

[primus_TR]

Depends on his math skills.

1) Lock on jam source.

2) Observe position on HUD ladder.

3) Descend or climb a couple angels.

4) Observe position on HUD ladder.

5) You now have (very) approximate range to target.

 

If you're implying using trig to solve for target range, then note that this would work only if you have zero closure rate to the target, i.e. your distance to the target (edit: and relative altitude) remains the same throughout, which is almost never the case.

Edited January 27, 2013 by primus_TR

[EtherealN]

See #5 - it's an approximation. Basically, you become able to figure out that "he is 40nm +/-5" etcetera.

 

And being able to say someone is at 40ish is better than knowing only an azimuth. Similarly, if you have multiple jammers in that direction, one far away and one not far from burnthrough, you'll be able to figure out who is the bigger threat and plan engagement accordingly without having to wait for the burnthrough.

[primus_TR]

I'd imagine the error would be too high (in the neighborhood of 100%, depending on closure rate) to worth the effort. But then, just my 2c.