A2A tactics - need some guidance

[Nara]

I'm fairly new to A10 (bought it in the steam sale at xmas) but I've put in a good amount of time to learn most of the systems. So at this point I am fairly proficient with the basics.

 

I am not yet an online pilot, so I mostly do either campaign missions or I use the "create a fast mission" option.

 

What I am really struggling with when I create a fast mission is the enemies fast movers. A mission will often start with a Mig 29 or 2 on the RWR, already making a bee-line for me. What are the tactics for dealing with this?

 

What I have been trying is to fly low, and pass over as many friendlies as I can find. I've watch the SAM avoidance youtube vid, so I understand how to avoid missiles, but it seems that I can avoid all their missiles and still get gunned down.

 

What I am avoiding is trying to dog fighting with them, but after reaching the point where that seems like the only option.. I decided to make this forum post. Please help me :)

 

Also, why does the AI fly past the 6 other AI controlled A10s and always go for me at the back?

[Bushmanni]

If you manage to dodge all of his missiles you should be able to fire one of your own after him when he flies past you. You need to have him at your 3 or 9 o'clock and start turning immediately when he can't aim his gun at you anymore. You will need to be quick before he gets too far so away that the missile can't reach him anymore. But as a general rule you should run to your CAP fighters or SAM sites for safety as you are not expected to survive without help if being attacked by a fighter in the first place.

[GGTharos]

I'm fairly new to A10 (bought it in the steam sale at xmas) but I've put in a good amount of time to learn most of the systems. So at this point I am fairly proficient with the basics.

 

You're proficient with the systems. The 'basics' are flying, and if you're like most vPilots, you're not really proficient with that. Shut off your MFD and HuD, take the weapons off, and learn to fly like that ;)

 

What I am really struggling with when I create a fast mission is the enemies fast movers. A mission will often start with a Mig 29 or 2 on the RWR, already making a bee-line for me. What are the tactics for dealing with this?

Calling for help and notching (hiding from radar, but it doesn't really work well against AI, and against russian planes - they might track you on thermal instead. It all depends on how early you take action).

 

Fly into your own SAM coverage, etc. It helps knowing which SAM can do what for you - for example, stingers can't handle supersonic targets well.

 

I've watch the SAM avoidance youtube vid, so I understand how to avoid missiles,

No, you understand to turn away and leave from missiles that are outside Rtr. Once you get inside Rtr, it's a different ball game :)

 

but it seems that I can avoid all their missiles and still get gunned down.

Yep, because you need to have your eyes out of the pit, and looking for the bandit, and then applying BFM.

 

What I am avoiding is trying to dog fighting with them, but after reaching the point where that seems like the only option.. I decided to make this forum post. Please help me :)

Dogfighting is a very broad and not so easy subject to cover, but there are many resources out there. There's even a book called 'Fighter Maneuvers and Tactics', IIRC.

 

It's pretty dry, and generally speaking learning BFM on your own is not easy.

 

In your situation, you turn better than the other fighters, but you can't accelerate, so keep him on the 3-9, and once you see that he is over-shooting behind you, turn into him and sucker him into scissors. You should win that. Don't be slow about reacting to the overshoot, you have to predict it before it happens.

 

Also, why does the AI fly past the 6 other AI controlled A10s and always go for me at the back?

Because they are programmed to give you (the player) all their attention.

[Nara]

Thanks guys, some really good tips there.

 

It's correct to say that I've learnt the systems but not BFM (google tells me this is Basic Fighter Maneuvers). So that's my next step :)

 

From what I've read so far if you get into A2A then you've done something wrong, but from what I can tell fast missions make it totally unavoidable. But I guess I can use this to start practising BFM.

 

Also, what is RTR? Radio Transmitter / Receiver?

[GGTharos]

Before you learn BFM, learn to fly the plane ... ;)

 

Rtr is range turn and run ... the range at which if you turn 180 deg from an aircraft that it launching a missile right then, you can out-run the missile.

 

It used to be called the NEZ (No Escape Zone), but since there are other ways of defeating missiles than out-running them, it's now called the Rtr.

[Nara]

Before you learn BFM, learn to fly the plane ... ;)

 

So by turning the HUD and MFD off I will get the feeling better of how to maneuver? Trying to understand what you mean by learning to fly.

[Eddie]

He is referring to learning the art of airmanship and actually flying the aircraft, rather than just clicking switches and operating systems.

 

Learn how the aircraft handles and performs in all flight regimes, where its strengths and weaknesses are, how to handle it when things go wrong etc. etc. Operating the systems is just a tiny part of flying a combat aircraft, but it is in most cases the only part that flight simmers focus on.

 

Learn to fly first, then learn to fight.

[GGTharos]

Yes, what Eddie said.

 

DCS puts the 'flight' into Combat Flight Simulation.

 

Flight is 99% of what combat pilots do, the systems are 1%. If you're not doing the flight part, you are depriving yourself ...

 

I'll give you a bit of a silly example - you shouldn't need your HuD to takeoff, navigate, and land. Nor your MFDs. Turn that stuff off and learn to do everything visually, with only crosschecking your other instruments.

 

All RL pilots do it like this - they learn flying without HuDS, MFDs, GPS' etc.

 

You will also slowly pick up spacial awareness this way, you'll now where you are, where you want to go etc. Spacial awareness leads to better situational awareness, which is the 'money' that you spend in combat ... it's not systems (systems might help enhance your SA, but having SA is in fact a skill, and systems won't make up for it when you run into someone who has it).

 

And the things that will kill you in A2A (other than the bandit killing you 'fair and square' after you gave it your best) are:

 

No SA (Because you're panicked, you don't know who's coming from where, you don't know where to go, and you didn't bother looking outside of your cockpit)

BFM screw ups (Because you don't know how to BFM, or because you don't know how to fly the plane, or because you had no SA and you panicked, blew all your speed for nothing or went to the wrong place, etc, or all of the above combined)

Edited February 28, 2013 by GGTharos

[Nara]

I'm not really sure how I will learn this other than waggling the stick and seeing what happens, but thank you guys for giving me some pointers.

[GGTharos]

Grab the USAF A-10 aerobatics publication.

 

Also AFI -248 (I think) might be of help.

[Bushmanni]

Waggling the stick and seeing what happens is a good way to learn if you combine it with thinking about what you did and why things went like they did and look up information on the stuff you saw and experienced. There will still be stuff you don't know even exists until you read about it or someone tells you about it but doing it yourself is still going to be requirement for getting proficient. The best way would be of course to get someone to show you the ropes.

[fjacobsen]

Just like the others said...

 

Start flying around learning how the A-10 reacts in the air and learn basic skills, like take off and landing, but also maneuvering. Watch how speed bleeds of during various maneuvers. Roll, climb, dive, turn, loop and make cuban eights (3/4 loop + half roll) etc..

Learn how to stay at the same heading, altitude and speed at once, even for some minutes.

 

After that amke simple missions in the mission builder, starting with a simple route consisting of Take off, fly to waypoint 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and then end up landing. The route can be setup like a large pattern around the airbase.

Ly the route usuing the TAD, then learn the landmarks for each waypoint. Landmarks can be every terrain feature like a specific tow, village, bridge, road or rail crossing or a river bend. Now learn to fly this route by visiuals only.

That way You will learn about estimating distances as well as building up some SA. Use the same Airbase for all subsequent missions and learn the surroundings.

 

Then start adding a single AAA or SAM site and learn how to approach it and get out of harms way, once it starts attacking You. Do the same with enemy aircraft, but don´t make those missions too complex.

Try with various treats and learn from how far they start to attack You and how best to avoid them.

 

This way You can gradually build up Your skills. Allways prioritise Your tasks like this:

Aviate (fly the aircraft)

Navigate (know where Your are and where to go)

Secure (Don´t bring You into troubles even if a kill seems easy)

Attack (If all the above items are fullfilled - Do Your business and kill some targets and then get out of there in a fast and save manor)

 

Honetsly I´m not very good at it either and often get caught in target fixation.

 

Fjacobsen

[Nara]

More great tips, thanks :)

 

My problem is that you don't know what you don't know. Before I made this thread in my mind I was pretty decent at doing the job for which an A10 was designed.. CAS.

 

So this means that I can fly the aircraft (take off, navigate, land), find the target and deliver ordinance to it. I am also aware of how to use the RWR to avoid targets, and which threats on the RWR are aircraft (my current biggest problem).

 

Having taken the advice last night of shutting the HUD and MFDs down and removing all weapons and just flying the aircraft I think I'm taking a step towards beginning to understand "what I don't know" :)

 

So last night I performed a number of basic maneuvers while keeping my eyes as much as possible off the instrumentation, and also a bunch of landings using only the altimeter and the "donut" speed indication. I think this really helped and was just plain fun. I've enjoyed learning to fly the aircraft and landings etc, but to do it without all the usual assistance was even better.

 

Something else I did was to watch this video:

 

This was to get a feel of what the aircraft is capable of when stripped bare. I had a go at some of it myself, was again great fun.

 

I hope at some point to get online and see if I can find a newbie friendly server in the European time zone.

[GGTharos]

So last night I performed a number of basic maneuvers while keeping my eyes as much as possible off the instrumentation, and also a bunch of landings using only the altimeter and the "donut" speed indication. I think this really helped and was just plain fun. I've enjoyed learning to fly the aircraft and landings etc, but to do it without all the usual assistance was even better.

 

The altimeter is a good cross-check, but in most planes, AFAIK, you don't get the donut - it's good that you used it, but try alt+airspeed. In fact, you can just crosscheck the alt, you should be able to hit the glideslope visually, with the altimeter being a safety cross-check :)

 

Something else I did was to watch this video:

 

This was to get a feel of what the aircraft is capable of when stripped bare. I had a go at some of it myself, was again great fun.

 

Get the USAF A-10 aerobatic demo publications, and use those. They give you airspeed and altitude targets as well as other information which may seem useless at first some times, but might get you thinking about how this thing flies and what sorts of things you should look out for.

 

Also, regarding turns - you mentioned something about that earlier - turn visually. Eg say you want to turn 90 deg right. Look to your right. What's there? Turn to line that up. You've just turned ~90 deg, and by looking around during the turn you're clearing the airspace as well to avoid potential collisions.

[Manuel]

GGTharos,

 

could you please give further detail about those A10 Aerobatic publications? I can not find anything specific on google search.

What do you mean? A demo vid, a book...links would be great.

 

Thanks in advance.

[GGTharos]

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afi11-246v1/afi11-246v1.pdf

[Manuel]

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afi11-246v1/afi11-246v1.pdf

 

Got it, thanks.