SPI-Wingman assignment problem

[BiBa]

I'm having a SPI-Wingman assignment problem:

I made sure that the new target SPI (TMS up long / SPI-On in MFCD / laser set 1688), before assigning it! It used to work before though.

 

After tasking my SPI to my Wingman's and sending him an "Engage Air Defenses" per Menu with an "Engage With/Missile" command, my Wingman neglects the current active Target Assignment and always return back to the first already destroyed Assigned Target Zone. As those previous targets were already destroyed, Wingman "rejoins" without action. I also noticed that the new triangular Assigned Target symbol is only activated after I've shot a missile. With TMS up long, there must be a second new target SPI triangle! Before the last 2 update, Wingmen used to fulfill their tasks properly. Now it's quite impossible to accomplish (for eg) any of the instant mission without Wingmen support!

 

EDITED: 11.24.13

Due to ZIP compression, the prior TRACK attachment was corrupted. I've uploaded today a new TRACK and re-downloaded for checking and is OK. Here are the details:

 

17:10:30 WP1 SUPPLY

Engage Air Defenses with Guns

mission accomplished

 

Pilot: 17:15:40 WP2 PATROL (Target: 1 SAM + 1 AAA)

Engage Air Defenses with Guns (SPI: SAM)

Wingman: 17:15:43:

affirm

Wingman: 17:15:48:

Rejoin

mission not accomplished

 

Once more:

Pilot: 17:16:52:

Engage Air Defenses with Maverick (SPI: SAM)

Wingman: 17:16:55:

Roger

Wingman: 17:15:48:

Rejoin

mission not accomplished

 

Once more:

Pilot: 17:16:55:

Engage Air Defenses with Maverick (SPI: AAA)

Wingman: 17:16:58:

Copy

Wingman: 17:17:02:

Rejoin

mission not accomplished

6 Lakes.zip

Edited November 24, 2013 by Biba

[BiBa]

EDITED: 11.24.13

Due to ZIP compression, the prior TRACK attachment above was corrupted. I've uploaded today a new TRACK and re-downloaded for checking and is OK. More details are cited above

Edited November 24, 2013 by Biba

[Flagrum]

This is weired.

 

First, when I played back your track (under the current DCS 1.2.6u3), I only see you flying towards WP1, then it switches to external view and your wingman fires 3 mavericks that kill one ZSU23 and two trucks. Then the track ends. I can't see any communication besides you ordering your wingman to go line abreast.

 

Second, your description of the problem ... I am not sure what you were actually doing there. So I just list some thoughts that came to my mind when reading your posting. Perhaps it helps in some way.

 

a) You send your wingman your SPI - the way you described it should work. So, okay so far.

b) You order your wingman to engange. I assume, that was done by comms menu option "F2"? Afaik this only orders him only to engage the given type of target - but if he fails to see it, he just rejoins. So, for me, not too surprisingly behaviour of your wingman here.

To make him aquire a target at your SPI (that you sent to him), F3 would be appropriate according to the manual.

c) The triangular "assigned target" symbols is shown when YOU are tasked, i.e. by a JTAC, via data link. This is the small red triangle.

The small white triangle that shows up after firing a weapon marks the last weapon event, which is also markpoint Z.

[BiBa]

This is weird...

No wonder it was weird. Due to ZIP compression, the prior TRACK attachment was corrupted. I've uploaded today a new TRACK and re-downloaded for checking and is OK. More details are in the first announcement. I'm really sorry

[Xavven]

Oh, I confirm exactly what the OP is observing.

 

In DCS A-10C in DCS World, purchased on Steam, version 1.2.6. Easy Comms enabled, everything else on Simulation settings.

 

In the Instant Action mission, Easy - Georgia Spring, my wingman will not engage targets at the TANK waypoint.

 

At the TANK wp, I search for a target with my TGP, make it my SPI, share my SPI with DMS left long, and then ask my wingman to engage air defense targets with missile at my SPI. He will acknowledge, maneuver, and then simply state "2 - rejoin" without engaging, despite having 4 Mavericks still available on his wings.

 

After doing multiple experimental runs, I confirm that if I personally destroy the SAM and AAA, then a new command of "engage armor at my SPI with missile" or "guided bomb" will work fine. The wingman functions fine at any other waypoint in the mission.

 

I'm going into the mission editor to see what's wrong. I noted earlier that the IR SAM isn't "Group Activated" by a trigger. I wonder what happens if I add that in...

[Xavven]

Alright, I found exactly what was wrong and fixed the mission. Here's what you need to do:

 

1. Select each Russian unit except for the trucks at the SUPPLY waypoint and click the "Late Activation" check box.

2. Go to the triggers menu and find the TANK SPAWN trigger. Add an ACTION and select GROUP ACTIVATE, setting SA9 as the group to activate.

 

Wingman now behaves correctly and takes out air defenses at the TANKS waypoint. Although, on my first run through, he stupidly got hit by the SAM and dumped all his weapons, then refused my order to engage the AAA with guns :devil_2: (yes, I am an evil flight lead. MUHUAHAHHA!) On my second run though, he successfully engaged all targets, SAM, AAA, and tanks, at the TANK waypoint.

[Flagrum]

Alright, I found exactly what was wrong and fixed the mission. Here's what you need to do:

 

1. Select each Russian unit except for the trucks at the SUPPLY waypoint and click the "Late Activation" check box.

2. Go to the triggers menu and find the TANK SPAWN trigger. Add an ACTION and select GROUP ACTIVATE, setting SA9 as the group to activate.

 

Wingman now behaves correctly and takes out air defenses at the TANKS waypoint. Although, on my first run through, he stupidly got hit by the SAM and dumped all his weapons, then refused my order to engage the AAA with guns :devil_2: (yes, I am an evil flight lead. MUHUAHAHHA!) On my second run though, he successfully engaged all targets, SAM, AAA, and tanks, at the TANK waypoint.

Hrm, it makes sort of sense then - while the SAM is not active it poses no threat, an AI SAM without AI is ... well, not really a SAM. Sort of. Maybe.

 

What was the condition for the tank spawn trigger? Was it activated after you ordered your wingman to attack? (i.e. "no thread" when you ordered him, became active then and engaged him?)

[BiBa]

Alright, I found exactly what was wrong and fixed the mission. Here's what you need to do:

1. Select each Russian unit except for the trucks at the SUPPLY waypoint and click the "Late Activation" check box.

2. Go to the triggers menu and find the TANK SPAWN trigger. Add an ACTION and select GROUP ACTIVATE, setting SA9 as the group to activate.

Wingman now behaves correctly and takes out air defenses at the TANKS waypoint...On my second run though, he successfully engaged all targets, SAM, AAA, and tanks, at the TANK waypoint.

This is exactly what I did, and more... Beside, as you saw in my Track, it's on the second WP PATROL, where the Wingman's disobedience starts. After I've destroyed the SAM there, you can see as reaction how the AAA shifts his position, which proves that the PATROL AD is already activated.

 

Also I'm having the same Wingman's behavior with others missions, where this problematic lies mainly with "Engage Air Defenses".

 

If you observe the Wingman closely after sending him the order "Engage Air Defenses", he always returns to the prior, already destroyed WP SPI. This problem has been there for more than three Updates, and DCS is just neglecting it!

Edited November 24, 2013 by Biba

[Xavven]

Hrm, it makes sort of sense then - while the SAM is not active it poses no threat, an AI SAM without AI is ... well, not really a SAM. Sort of. Maybe.

 

What was the condition for the tank spawn trigger? Was it activated after you ordered your wingman to attack? (i.e. "no thread" when you ordered him, became active then and engaged him?)

 

The condition for the tank spawn trigger is "Flag 1 is on". Flag 1 gets set to "on" when either paratrooper on at the BRIDGE waypoint takes damage. It's interesting how ED did this, actually. Since there's no way for them to detect if the bridge is blown up, they instead check to see if the infantry on the bridge go down.

 

In the non-modified version of this mission, the SAM is actually visible BEFORE the tank-spawn trigger. Once the bridge is destroyed, the tanks and AAA spawn at the TANKS waypoint, and that's when the wingman ignores orders to engage air defense.

 

Here's another interesting thing... For seemingly no reason, the fix I posted above stopped working for me on some subsequent test runs (I was actually trying to double-check that JTAC was working at the COLUMN waypoint).

 

So, I decided to delete the SAM and AAA at the TANKS waypoint, create a new group called "TANKS Air Defense Fixed" and populate that one group with both the SAM and AAA, being careful to place them back exactly where the originals were to keep the mission as true to the original as possible. I also made it late activation to keep with the original mission. This seems to have fixed it.

 

I'm attaching my modified version of the mission. I just applied the bug-fixes described above -- no gameplay changes, tempted as I was to lower the fuel to 50%. Place this in your aircrafts\A-10C\Missions\EN\QuickStart directory. If you got the game on Steam like I did, the full path is: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\DCSWorld\Mods\aircrafts\A-10C\Missions\EN\QuickStart

Easy - East Georgia - Spring.miz

[BiBa]

...Here's another interesting thing... For seemingly no reason, the fix I posted above stopped working for me on some subsequent test runs (I was actually trying to double-check that JTAC was working at the COLUMN waypoint).

So, I decided to delete the SAM and AAA at the TANKS waypoint, create a new group called "TANKS Air Defense Fixed" and populate that one group with both the SAM and AAA, being careful to place them back exactly where the originals were to keep the mission as true to the original as possible. I also made it late activation to keep with the original mission. This seems to have fixed it.

I'm attaching my modified version of the mission. I just applied the bug-fixes described above -- no gameplay changes, tempted as I was to lower the fuel to 50%. Place this in your aircrafts\A-10C\Missions\EN\QuickStart directory. If you got the game on Steam like I did, the full path is: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\DCSWorld\Mods\aircrafts\A-10C\Missions\EN\QuickStart

I'll try your mission tomorrow and tell you then the results... Yet I can confirm that most A-10C Bugs are to be mostly found in old missions, and seems like DCS is too stingy to invest for patches by the MFM Company, who designs those missions...

 

As for Steam; I strongly advise you to delete that and download the original DCS World with the A-10C, and use the Steam PW to register it in DCS. The Support works better than Steam, and with each extra DCS AI Mod you buy by Steam, you'll download World once more, which is up to seven GB each time with it!

[BiBa]

..I'm attaching my modified version of the mission...

I tried your modified mission and I'm still having the same Issue with the Wingman... As I mentioned before this problematic occurs also with other missions, mostly with the COM "Engage Air defenses with..." especially when there are SAM or AAA to be dealt with, and the common behavior that I noticed, is that the Wingman always returns to the last prior SPI, where you see there a white triangle after having employed some weaponry.

 

Interesting though is that the same mission displays differently with different Users. I wonder why?!

 

HMMM, maybe my firewall/Virus Program Zone Alarm Extreme Suit is behind that. I'll shut it down and will give it another try to see if it differs...

Edited November 25, 2013 by Biba

[Flagrum]

I tried your modified mission and I'm still having the same Issue with the Wingman... As I mentioned before this problematic occurs also with other missions, mostly with the COM "Engage Air defenses with..." especially when there are SAM or AAA to be dealt with, and the common behavior that I noticed, is that the Wingman always returns to the last prior SPI, where you see there a white triangle after having employed some weaponry.

 

Interesting though is that the same mission displays differently with different Users. I wonder why?!

 

HMMM, maybe my firewall/Virus Program Zone Alarm Extreme Suit is behind that. I'll shut it down and will give it another try to see if it differs...

I doubt that any external program can influence DCS in such a way. Also I was able to reproduce the behaviour you describe. I took over control and then my wingman was as stubborn as yours.

 

But I made 2-3 observations (which are not neccessarily related to the problem, though):

1. the wingman does not return to the previous SPI. It looks a bit like he would, but in my opinion he is just turing around to approach the target ... but aborts very early.

2. you set a laser code at the TISL before take off. that is not necessary as TISL functionality is not implemented in DCS A-10C. Instead you can cange the laser code for the ordnance at the DSMS INV page and/or use the TGP LSS (laser spot search) function. Even in RL TISL isn't used anymore - TGP is just much better and more flexible.

3. when I was commanding the wingman to engage, he went totally inresponsive after his "rejoin". He was follwing me, but ignored my comms completely - no formation change, no engaging, nothing. weired.

 

edit:

To me this all looks like a specific bug in the AI code. And when you look at the bugs in the AI section of the bugs&problems forum you see that we are not alone with this or similar kind of problems.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Flagrum

[BiBa]

I doubt that any external program can influence DCS in such a way. Also I was able to reproduce the behaviour you describe. I took over control and then my wingman was as stubborn as yours...But I made 2-3 observations (which are not necessarily related to the problem, though)...To me this all looks like a specific bug in the AI code. And when you look at the bugs in the AI section of the bugs & problems forum you see that we are not alone with this or similar kind of problems.

You're right, turning off Zone Alarm didn't help either. Definitely it is a Bug. Can you paste me the links of those other threads, that are already dealing with the same problem to follow up. Thanks