Trouble Tracking with F-15 Radar

[SgtPappy]

I've been experiencing some issues using the APG-70 radar of the F-15C in FC3.

 

I was playing on the excellent 1980's weapons -=WAR=- Steel Beasts server flying in the North West part of the map where there are no mountains or hills at all.

 

I finally find a target only to lose it completely even though he has locked on to me. So now I'm flying at around maybe 18000' to avoid Strelas and he's firing at me, from 12 o'clock. Of course he's either much higher than me or much lower but I still get nothing on the radar if I face up or point down. Yet he's still painting me.

 

I'm left my radar in interleaved and my scan zone at max. I then tried TWS or a combination of different PRF modes, TWS and scan zone sizes. Still nothing. Next thing I know, a Strela shoots me in the face after I had lost enough altitude.

 

Am I doing something wrong?

[fitness88]

I've been experiencing some issues using the APG-70 radar of the F-15C in FC3.

 

I was playing on the excellent 1980's weapons -=WAR=- Steel Beasts server flying in the North West part of the map where there are no mountains or hills at all.

 

I finally find a target only to lose it completely even though he has locked on to me. So now I'm flying at around maybe 18000' to avoid Strelas and he's firing at me, from 12 o'clock. Of course he's either much higher than me or much lower but I still get nothing on the radar if I face up or point down. Yet he's still painting me.

 

I'm left my radar in interleaved and my scan zone at max. I then tried TWS or a combination of different PRF modes, TWS and scan zone sizes. Still nothing. Next thing I know, a Strela shoots me in the face after I had lost enough altitude.

 

Am I doing something wrong?

 

 

I would have been in High PFR...he has to head toward you to fire.

[SgtPappy]

Right. As I mentioned, although not explicitly, I was changing my PRF modes from Interleaved to High and eventually back. Perhaps he was far too much in the clutter as I couldn't pick him up even in HI PRF.

 

Could my scan zones have somthing to do with it as well? I notice that as I zoom out on the display from 40nm to 80nm the altitude scan zone will increase from say 0 to 22000' to say, 0 to 40000' and sometimes they will show up. And correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes they will show up at an altitude like angels 15 where I should have been able to see them before.

[GGTharos]

Without seeing what happened - ie. a track, there's now way to tell whether you were doing something wrong or he was doing something right.

 

From your description though it seems obvious that you don't grasp that the radar coverage is a cone - that is why when you 'zoom out' you see a larger altitude slice. This is the altitude coverage of the radar scan zone at the TDC, so the TDC takes the 'slice'. This is valid only for the distance the TDC is at.

 

Since the scan zone is a cone, it should be obvious that the altitude coverage shrinks the closer it is to you.

[blkspade]

Yes the scan zone is very sensitive to scan range. Often you can miss targets that are closer than the middle point of your currently select range because they are actually outside of your cone at that range. At some point you'll be able to extrapolate how far/close a contact is on the RWR. It'll be a rough estimate, but it'll give you an idea of where reduce your range to for more accurate scanning. Since TWS mode doesn't automatically track targets altitude change you'll eventually reach a point where you'll have to STT lock a target to keep them locked.

 

Right. As I mentioned, although not explicitly, I was changing my PRF modes from Interleaved to High and eventually back. Perhaps he was far too much in the clutter as I couldn't pick him up even in HI PRF.

 

Could my scan zones have somthing to do with it as well? I notice that as I zoom out on the display from 40nm to 80nm the altitude scan zone will increase from say 0 to 22000' to say, 0 to 40000' and sometimes they will show up. And correct me if I'm wrong, but sometimes they will show up at an altitude like angels 15 where I should have been able to see them before.

[SgtPappy]

No no, I very much understand the altitude slice is a cone. I'm not studying radar types, antennas, scan zones, main and side lobe clutter and the rest at school for no reason :)

 

What I'm saying is that say the bandit is at 15000'. Im zoomed in at 40 nm on my display, scanning between altitudes 0 - 25000'. I cannot see him on the scope anymore, he disappeared.

 

I zoom out on the display to 80 nm with the alt. scan zone between 0 - 40000' for example. He reappears and is still around 15000'. At all times, I believe he is smack dab in the middle of display (i.e. I'm never at gimbal limits).

 

Is this possible? Because it seems like that's what is happening. If it's not, then maybe the heat of the combat is just making me lose concentration.

Edited October 24, 2013 by SgtPappy

[GGTharos]

The only thing I can come up with that you wouldn't be doing wrong is:

 

1) Sensor ghost from a previous scan (they happen in this game, but they shouldn't)

2) Your bandit is changing aspect such that the radar is unable to pick him up

[lunaticfringe]

Of course he's either much higher than me or much lower but I still get nothing on the radar if I face up or point down. Yet he's still painting me.

 

If referring to "face up or point down" means pointing the nose of the aircraft up or down, there's no relative change in the elevation angle of the radar being that it is stabilized.

 

Solution to this is bank angle to find out whether he's above or below, level out, and slew the elevation accordingly. If his RWR return is disappearing for a moment, then coming back, he's notching you in some direction, or turning through a post hole, and then using his own slew to pick you up at the end of the maneuver.

 

The instant he drops off the VSD, switch to MED PRF; your chances would be better at catching him with the apparently decreased lower rate. Interleaved, if it works *correctly* here, isn't as useful as it seems because it takes two passes of the whole 4 bar scan to cover all the bars with the two PRF types, meaning that if his aspect and closure changes between the passes but he maintains his altitude within the region of airspace a given bar would pass through OR he shifts between two bars on alternating sequences (a slow descent or climb can cause this) means you may miss him altogether. The odds of the latter are incredibly low, but it can happen if "today" is not your lucky day.

 

Given that you may catch the elevation factor with the bank angle trick (if it still works in FC3- it's been a while) while he's still not fully around the corner and generating big closure, being there doesn't put you at an advantage. The instant you've got the elevation cue though, go HI- this means if he stops turning and maintains his heading at you, you'll get the return.

 

A 1 or 2 bar scan setting would be useful for a situation like this, even if it were only the 2 bar TWS scan with 60 degree azimuth (as it was with the earlier MSIP modes of the APG-63); this would significantly collapse the scan pattern and allow you freedom of maneuver- which you should be using anyways. The instant he disappears, check turn. Do something to slow the collapsing of your poles so you have time to find him again. Use the bank check in a turn to confirm elevation at the same time while slowing the loss of range- for example, a heading change of 45 degrees works wonders if he entered the notch, especially if you had him prior as a return in TWS with an aspect indicator before he ditched you.

 

Whatever you do- if you lose him and don't have a clue what he did, don't sit on the same heading and altitude looking around for him; this just serves you up on a plate.

[TAW_Blaze]

I've had similar issues being locked/launched while not being able to find the guy even though I knew his exact position.

 

There's a couple things that helped me, I'll share them.

 

1) If you don't think you have the time to bother with a full azimuth scan, change azimuth to 60 degrees (ie the guy launched on you and you can't find him, but you know his direction), RWS is always better here than TWS as far as my experience goes because TWS will lose him very easily.

 

2) Keep changing your flightpath and don't fly completely straight.

 

3) Scanning beyond 40 miles imo is just pointless, most of the times you won't pick anything up, or if you do it'll just be the jammers.

 

4) If someone pings or locks you look for 20-40 miles first because you can scan the area quickly in a wide altitude range, if you havent found him lower the azimuth and try another short scan, if you still have no result immediately assume he's closer. He might be out 60 miles and looking at your jammer but at the same time he might be sneaking up on you. It takes a little more time to check various altitudes at low range due to how the radar works but if you remember to do this it'll save your ass a lot.

 

5) If he's very close to you, you can try for boresight/flood mode although I've never tried flood yet, was just thinking about it.

Edited October 24, 2013 by <Blaze>

[SgtPappy]

I've actually been using the boresight every now and then in some fights, but I feel like I cheat when I do that because I should know where they are without the blind luck of boresight finding them.

 

GG, sometimes I notice I try and lock up the ghost. But it becomes obvious when it's a passed reflection. Why is ghosting not supposed to happen for the APG-70?

 

lunaticfringe, your tips will come in very handy when the enemy is trying to notch me. So far I've done most of what you said since I get a little bit more time to think when they aren't closing at me. And it usually works! I will keep the azimuth limits in mind though, as sometimes they are still able to notch me well.

 

Blaze has explained the exact situation though. I'm painted, they're firing and not on my scope. I will try using this "short scan" technique online in the future. Thanks guys.