Brasil`s govenment will buy the Saab Gripen

[EtherealN]

consider that they haven't been part of a major shooting war in 200 years..

 

To be fair, Brazil was part of the Allied forces in World War 2, sending division-strength forces to fight in the Mediterranean and Italy. (The declaration of war was issued against Germany and Italy on 1942.)

 

If you mean Sweden, then sure, but in our case the key players in the design were cost, serviceability, and dispersion - it was made to be cheap to operate, easy to service in remote location, and be able to operate in a dispersed fashion on the road-base network. (Air bases in sweden are only peacetime storage of combat aircraft. Whenever there would be suspicion that a war might be imminent, all the planes would get hidden all over the country.)

 

The drawbacks were that under the cold war specification of mainly dealing with territorial defense for sweden, range wasn't a high priority, but the E/F programme (the "Gripen NG") is actually looking at that as one of the specific things it is looking to improve (same way the C/D programmed looked at aerial refueling and full NATO compatibility as a practical pre-requisite to being exportable).

Edited January 14, 2014 by EtherealN

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

In today's world of electronics, all it takes is one radio signal and your missile will miss or is disabled, your radar shows you bogus info and etc. Meaning, you have to make sure that your missile, radar system, aircraft electronics comes from a trusted source. So, be careful who you buy your military electronics from.

 

There are many stories out there, but, a story of Sadam Husein printers in his AA missile vehicles, that is a funny story. It was on a discovery channel few years ago. Well, the printers had little radio transmitter in them, unknown to Sadam. And allies knew, very precisely, location of the AA batteries.

[Vann7]

 

Maybe it makes sense to obtain MANY more Saab planes that may not be technically as good as the other options but are by no means dogs either.. and if you can get many more of them for the same price it may make sense when you consider that they haven't been part of a major shooting war in 200 years..

)

 

 

No it doesn't make any sense.. Brazil was offered full transfer of technology of the Sukhois SU-35 everything so they can produce them and even sell them.. So the excuse of being 'complicate' to maintain and repair does not apply because brazil will had full knowledge how to make everything and will have learned how to make a real combat jet..for the first time in their history. not a re-branded F-18 SH with fancy monitors displays.

 

THe Gripen will be owned even to the venezuelans SU-30s in a dog fight.. and will lose in Long range too. and will not have the Electronic COunter measures of the SU-35 either. No one in Europe Buy the Gripen ,they will be buying F-35's or Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafales arent cheap.. all this planes more expensive. The SU-35 was made to detect stealth planes ,something that the Gripen will not do.. And is wishful thinking that any nation in Europe will contradict USA , if for some reason They Blackmailed to not sell repair parts or weapons to brazil.. Is ridiculous that Brazil says will not buy F/18s for the spying scandal ,because they dont trust in USA ,but end buying a plane with 90% american parts. Any way , is not like brazilian Army is any good for anything either ,is like a disaster. Just is pathetic how people fooled here with the claims of how 'good' is the Gripen. there is enough reports from different sources that reveals how much NATO Airforces Lags to Russian comparable planes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRMO70Hw0s

Edited February 5, 2014 by Vann7

[GriffonBR]

We don't need fighter planes. We can't even support the ones that we already have lol.

 

We need better hospitals, more security, more schools and other basic things that you guys from EU and USA have.

 

Also, stay out from our "World Cup", for your own safety. It's gonna be a terrible mess.

Edited February 5, 2014 by GriffonBR

[El Hadji]

No one in Europe Buy the Gripen

 

Except from maybe Hungary and the Czech Republic?

 

[taps]

Except from maybe Hungary and the Czech Republic?

 

 

And Switzerland

[Kaktus29]

i think valid concerns exist to how much control Brazil will have in terms of spare parts etc. IF problem with US arises.. Grippen, Eurofighter, Rafale, F-18 all of it is more or less US approved.. so if you are buying any of this fighters i think you can kiss your sovereignty goodbye..

 

again, the likelihood Brazil might come under-pressure from US for whatever reason is much bigger than Russia..so picking a western plane from a western government that is very agreeable with US is surely a miss in my book.. Who knows what the brazilians were thinking.. Sweden is still gunning for Assange for a broken condom.. not even rape, and sweden is suppposed to be "neutral".. when it comes to military shipments.. yeah, Brazil bad decision..

[Haukka81]

No it doesn't make any sense.. Brazil was offered full transfer of technology of the Sukhois SU-35 everything so they can produce them and even sell them.. So the excuse of being 'complicate' to maintain and repair does not apply because brazil will had full knowledge how to make everything and will have learned how to make a real combat jet..for the first time in their history. not a re-branded F-18 SH with fancy monitors displays.

 

THe Gripen will be owned even to the venezuelans SU-30s in a dog fight.. and will lose in Long range too. and will not have the Electronic COunter measures of the SU-35 either. No one in Europe Buy the Gripen ,they will be buying F-35's or Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafales arent cheap.. all this planes more expensive. The SU-35 was made to detect stealth planes ,something that the Gripen will not do.. And is wishful thinking that any nation in Europe will contradict USA , if for some reason They Blackmailed to not sell repair parts or weapons to brazil.. Is ridiculous that Brazil says will not buy F/18s for the spying scandal ,because they dont trust in USA ,but end buying a plane with 90% american parts. Any way , is not like brazilian Army is any good for anything either ,is like a disaster. Just is pathetic how people fooled here with the claims of how 'good' is the Gripen. there is enough reports from different sources that reveals how much NATO Airforces Lags to Russian comparable planes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRMO70Hw0s

 

 

Youtube proofs.. sure. Now we have to belive :doh:

[Basher54321]

Gripen seems a cost effective buy at least & probably ties in with the R-99 AEW system better.

[Scrim]

sweden is suppposed to be "neutral".. when it comes to military shipments.. yeah, Brazil bad decision..

 

Sweden has not been neutral even a single day since the end of WW2. From the first day we were ensuring that our military equipment would be compatible with NATO counterparts, we shared intelligence with them, and in case of another major conflict, the plan was to at best stay neutral for a token time before finding some convenient reason to join the war on NATO's side. Though it's been common knowledge for well over a decade, Swedish politicians (and other smug people) keep pretending that neutrality in order to maintain peace, and not turning like one with the geopolitical wind and cowardice to stay out of wars even at the direct expense of our neighbours, is and always will be a almost uniquely Swedish virtue.

 

 

I don't think that's lost on the Brazilians. But choosing the Gripen is cheaper, and doesn't mean sending money to the Americans.

[El Hadji]

I think many people here in Sweden (yes, I'm swedish) misinterpret 'neutral'. Since we aren't at war (unless you consider sending troops to Afghanistan as being at war...) of course Sweden isn't neutral. No one here ever said we would be. Sweden is considererd non-aligned in peace time, meaning we aren't a member of NATO or any other similar organisation. This gives us the freedom to cooperate with anyone as we see fit. And given our location and history with Russia and the former USSR (which isn't exactly peaceful) it seems fairly natural to share intelligence etc with NATO. In wartime however, the official policy is to have a neutral standpoint.

[Scrim]

Which was never, ever the actual plan. Also, as much as I'm for sharing intelligence with NATO about the USSR, it's hardly going to decrease the risks of drawing your country into a war, something that every single government for decades claimed they were putting everything they could into.

[Kaktus29]

@scrim.. i don't think you understand what i was saying.. at the slightest problem Brazil will have with US, US will be able to tell Sweden or Finland or Austria of whatever western country to stop giving support to Grippen parts and voila .. BRazil can kiss its GRipen force goodbye..

 

US picked a phone and closed whole European air space from Russia to Portugal and threatened the live of a president of a sovereign country Bolivia last year.. To imagine Sweden will resist such pressures ? lol.. So, picking Grippen is just stupid.. Brazil should have gone with F-18 for that matter.. if its western than you have already made your choice of who u hope will be your ally.. so somehow saying Grippen gives you more maneuvering space in terms of safety for delivery of essential parts and technical service compared to F-18 is just stupid..

 

Sweden hunts Assange even tough no rape, even though the woman supposed to be raped said she has no problem and didn't file the report to the police but police did it anyway-we can only guess by whose orders..

 

Fact is, Sweden is more or less NATO country.. and NATO is US organization where US exerts most political, diplomatic and military power.. so, whats the point in picking Gripen instead of F-18? .. cheaper? if you want cheap just forget the planes, call US to guard you as Hungary is doing to Slovenia air space and be done with it.. why pretend to have an air force when it can't be used unless Washington gives you "green light" ..

[Scrim]

So, apart from your frankly idiotic view of what constitutes rape (it doesn't have to be dragging a screaming woman into a back alley), I'd like to reiterate:

 

I've quite clearly written that Sweden is very un-neutral, and that the only political advantage with the Gripen is that it doesn't directly benefit the US arms industry.

[Kaktus29]

@scrim.. Brazil supposedly didn't choose US product not to hurt US finances -lol.. but to have a plane that will protect Brazil and will not be from US-with intent that it will operate IF problems with US arise.. since Sweden is not neutral that is a null point, meaning Brazil picked badly..

 

my "idiotic" view of what constitutes rape is not idiotic, there was never rape involved, the whole thing was about CONSENSUAL sex that assange didn't change condom and the woman supposedly wanted a new condom and after this police took over.. this is first time in history a man is being hunted on interpol for a broken condom.. seriously.. )) It portrays Sweden in very bad light indeed.. hundreds of Swedish muslims are joining the ranks of alkaida yet no interpol, no swedish police on alarm.. yet the case of the broken condom is taken with seriousness of the nuremberg trials..

 

all in all, Brazil picked the wrong plane..

[Scrim]

Now here's the thing: If during intercourse, the woman says that she doesn't want to continue having sex, and the man responds by holding her down and keep it up, then that's rape.

 

And I very clearly wrote "political advantage". Not tactical, strategical, or anything else.

 

And no, it's more like 50-ish Swedish citizens who've gone abroad for jihad nonsense. So what? You expecting the police to go down to Syria and Somalia and bring them home in handcuffs?

Edited February 7, 2014 by Scrim

[Kaktus29]

@scrim.. the holding down and continuing with sex is something that is not true.. the woman STATED it. it was not a rape.. but as orders from US came in Police came in and turned it into a rape.. god you are thick..

 

so, a potential terrorist that can blow up civilians in Sweden is less of a threat than a broken condom?.. nice.. Go sweden))

[Scrim]

1, No, that is not what she said happened. Or what the second woman said happened. Believe what you want, but this is a democratic society, and from that Assange has seen fit to hide in the London embassy of a country that regularly imprisons and issues enormous fines to regime critical journalists, for over 3 years now, claiming nonsense about being extradited from Sweden to the US should he return.

 

2, Not a single "jihadi" has returned from either Somalia or Syria. The Swedish police has made it very well known that they keep track of who goes, and if they should attempt to return, in which case they will be arrested since direct involvement with terrorist organisations is a felony here. It is also the Swedish police that brought the issue to light, so I have a hard time believing that they would not do anything about it.

[Weta43]

Just skimming this, but the economic and security advantages to Brazil of choosing the Saab seem obvious.

For their economy - if Saab is prepared to allow brazil to build a significant portion of the aircraft domestically then that's good for balance of payments, and stimulates the local economy rather than that of the USA - plus has likely spin-offs for the Brazilian aircraft manufacturing sector in the future - plus the operating costs are lower (same benefits again).

Security - if the factory is in Brazil, likely so will be a significant stock of 'spares', and perhaps even the ability to create stock from scratch. Electronics - Saab allow Brazil to add systems of their own manufacture / development over time - no worries about things 'reporting home', or deciding not to work against an ally of the original manufacturer..

The range might not be the best, but they can buy more of them, and their design lends itself to a wider geographical deployment across what is a very big country - which increases effective loiter time and cuts down reaction time.

They'll still vastly outclass most of their likely adversaries, and keep up with most of the unlikely alternatives...

 

 

 

 

1, No, that is not what she said happened. Or what the second woman said happened.

Except that (from what's been printed here) neither of the women laid a complaint until they found out he was sleeping with them both, the police declined to lay charges when the complaints were first laid. It was a 'political' figure that instructed them to quite some time later - specifically, after the US decided they wanted Assange's blood.

[Scrim]

Yes. Because the extradition theory Assange has announced revolving around him being set up for rape charges in Sweden, which will of course lead to him being extradited to the US, where they will charge him with treason despite him not being an American citizen and as such being unable to commit treason against the US, and sentencing him to death totally makes sense.

 

It's convenient how Assange supporters tend to leave out those, shall we call them "bat shit insane" parts of the set up conspiracy.

 

Also, don't pull a bunch of BS. I live here (in Sweden that is), and I can tell you that from day one of this being made public, the police said that he was wanted for questioning.

[Weta43]

Back to the "more = better coverage" idea.

By my (plastic ruler on the screen) estimate, it's something like 2300km from Brazil's Northernmost airport to its southernmost.

With either the Super Hornet or the Gripen, you need at least 4 airbase operating just to get the country covered at the maximum combat radius.

Looks to me like you'd want at least 7 bases operating whichever plane you purchase to get a reasonable coverage of Brazil's own territory, never mind looking at force projection.

 

More planes, and a higher % of planes available has to be the best option for Brazil.

 

 

 

 

Also, don't pull a bunch of BS. I live here (in Sweden that is), and I can tell you that from day one of this being made public, the police said that he was wanted for questioning.

Assange is wanted for questioning regarding alleged sexual misconduct ('molestation', not rape) with two women while in Sweden in August 2010, and has not been formally charged. In 20 August 2010, Swedish police began an investigation into the allegations.

 

The arrest warrant was cancelled on 21 August 2010 by one of Stockholm's Chief Prosecutors, Eva Finne, and the investigation was downgraded to only cover one of the lesser allegations.

...Eva Finné (I)n answer to questions surrounding the incidents declared, "I don't think there is reason to suspect that he has committed rape."

The warrant was subsequently re-issued on 1 September 2010 by another Swedish Chief Prosecutor, Marianne Ny

 

But I suspect neither of us are going to be persuaded, so I'll leave it there...

Edited February 9, 2014 by Weta43

[OutOnTheOP]

Yes. Because the extradition theory Assange has announced revolving around him being set up for rape charges in Sweden, which will of course lead to him being extradited to the US, where they will charge him with treason despite him not being an American citizen and as such being unable to commit treason against the US, and sentencing him to death totally makes sense.

 

It's convenient how Assange supporters tend to leave out those, shall we call them "bat shit insane" parts of the set up conspiracy.

 

Also, don't pull a bunch of BS. I live here (in Sweden that is), and I can tell you that from day one of this being made public, the police said that he was wanted for questioning.

 

Not to mention that, policy against assassination notwithstanding, if they REALLY wanted him dead badly enough to jump through those hoops, they could just as easily stage an "accident" or a run-in with a "mugger" or any number of infinitely easier ways to off him.

[El Hadji]

Just out of curiousity, is Assange training to become a Gripen pilot or something? Can't really see how he fits in to this thread otherwise...:pilotfly:

[RagnarDa]

Brasil`s govenment will buy the Saab Gripen

 

Sorry for continuing the off-topic, but I just want to add that Assange hasn't been hunted by the justice system because he is a celebrity, he has _escaped_ justice because he is a celebrity. You can read about some of the common misconceptions about the affair here: http://www.dn.se/debatt/manga-felaktigheter-i-artikeln-om-assange/?brs=m

 

Now carry on with the topic.

Edited February 10, 2014 by RagnarDa

[Kaktus29]

again with Grippen being good, how, will Brazil have 100% service parts and ability to produce them in Brazil? NO. so, what are we talking here.. its having a product that with slightly annoyed US becomes under sanction and useless.. Will Sweden say NO to US demands to stop providng service to GRippen? no.. end of story.. bad choice for a plane for Brazil..

 

When it comes to national security you put strategic imperatives into play not tactical.. even if tactically Gripen makes sense it surely doesn't strategically.. and it doesn't even tactically..

 

i thought we were over the quantity over quality argument.. and its not like Gripen costs 30 million USD.. its expensive, .. actually as much as Su-35 which outranks it in power, range, load, loiter, etc.. overall, facts prove this was a dumb decision.. if i were Brazil and if choosing a western product go for Rafale .. a little more expensive but more capable and with bigger range..