RWR functionality

[sobek]

The latter. It wouldn't be smart to classify an incoming radar signal simply by power. There are other factors that allow much better classification with the added bonus that they don't change with range.

 

Edit: Of course it isn't smart to confuse power and intensity either (which i did, d'oh). :)

Edited January 3, 2014 by sobek

[GGTharos]

However, the average transmitted power of 1kW is the same with both N019 and N001.

 

What's your point? :)

 

So about differentiating signals, let's say we've got two MiG-29A in the same space/same distance/same aspect. One of them has a fully functional or a brand new radar that emitts 1kW of power and his wingman flicks a radar that had more than 200 hours of usage and is uncapable of transmitting more than 300W...

 

Do you think your average TEWS would indicate a 29 and 21 flying at you?

 

edit:

or two 29 icons but the one with functional radar being a bigger threat?

 

I don't get where your question comes from. I believe you misunderstood what I wrote.

[Vekkinho]

What's your point? :)

 

The fact that 29A and 27S have radars of same power...

 

I don't get where your question comes from. I believe you misunderstood what I wrote.

 

It comes from the fact that both Su-27 and MiG-29 have radars of same power which leads to conclusion that real RWR unscrambling is not based on radar power like some of us here think is by looking at the way things are in Falcon or DCS...

 

Weak N019 signal from a weak N019 radar is still a diamond 29 in TEWS, isn't it...

Edited January 3, 2014 by Vekkinho

[Vekkinho]

...which is another proof that signal power is RWR's least concern in determining a threat type.

 

BTW it was a rhetorical question.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Vekkinho

[GGTharos]

So you didn't understand what I wrote. It has nothing to do with the RWR determining radar type from it's emitted power.

 

It has everything to do with how that emitted power is used by the radar antenna and the tuning that needs to take place to make the best use of it.

 

BTW, 1kW doesn't mean they both actually put the same power on target ... care to guess why the MiG-29's radar range is lesser? But they both have 1KW! :)

[Vekkinho]

Now N019 and N001 are same considering the output power, however their PRF oscillators are not. This makes N001 more efficient in high/med PRF modes.

 

Now since N019 and N001 oscillators differ, TEWS/RWR simbology shoud too...

[Vekkinho]

So you didn't understand what I wrote. It has nothing to do with the RWR determining radar type from it's emitted power.

 

It has everything to do with how that emitted power is used by the radar antenna and the tuning that needs to take place to make the best use of it.

 

BTW, 1kW doesn't mean they both actually put the same power on target ... care to guess why the MiG-29's radar range is lesser? But they both have 1KW! :)

 

I did understand what you wrote and this Q wasn't actually going your way.

 

...read my post above this one and you'll understand what I'm trying to say is that TEWS simbology should be different for Su-27 and MiG-29.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Vekkinho

[GGTharos]

Ok, sorry - you did something confusing :)

[Vekkinho]

Ok, sorry - you did something confusing :)

 

Simplified way to understand this is to imagine radar as a flashlight.

 

Let's say 2 flashlights use same 2*AA type batteries, same light bulb etc. but still have a different efficiency...

 

Perhaps one of them has larger mirror cone (larger antenna dia)?

 

Perhaps they work with different frequencies producing different colors of radiated light (different oscillators)?

 

Perhaps human eye can see the difference from 100m out?

 

Perhaps TEWS can see the difference from 100km out?

[Alfa]

I don't. PRFs have to change quite a bit (with respect to a matchable pattern) when you reduce the antenna to 1/4 or 1/3 of the area. I'll see if I can find you some free sources for this; it's one of those 'gotta see the math' things, or take my work for it ... I think it's better if you see the math/physics of it.

 

Edit: Here's one thing. http://www.radartutorial.eu/18.explanations/ex36.en.html ... now, you might ask, 'why would they not use the same thing' and I'll tell you there's more math to it that has to do with radar frequency, emitted power, and mainlobe angular size which is driven by the antenna size for the same frequency. Use the same thing as a Su-27 and you screw yourself out of a whole bunch of range on the MiG due to power-on-target issues, use the same thing as a MiG-29 on a Su-27 and you screw yourself out of a whole bunch of range due to ambiguity issues. The PRFs need to be tuned individually, and I suspect the frequencies are chosen to be optimal also, and since mainlobe size is driven by antenna size and frequency you might want to choose an optimal set which won't be the same for two antennae of different sizes.

 

GG I am not saying that PRFs are the same for the N019 and N001 or too close to be distinguished by the RWR, but suggested that, in case information wasn't available for one of them, that they could have been "slotted together" due to the similarity in design(antenna type, emitter etc) as well as employing the same weapon(R-27R) - i.e. better to have a "29" resolution to work with than an "unknown".

 

If you still want to say that these two will appear similar, I can take you down that slippery slope an ask you why you can differentiate between an APG-65 and a MiG-29 radar.

 

PRF/frequency tuning aside, the N019 and N001 are virtually identical in design, while the AN/APG-65 is totally different..

 

(The real answer is that there are a lot more techniques to use with radars, so while frequency and PRF choices are driven by some set of rules, pulse chirping etc. are driven by yet other rules, so you get additional ways to differentiate signals ... and all of that will be driven by the physical characteristics of the system, which you already know are not the same for those aircraft :) )

 

Precisely and therefore I don't believe that an APG-65 or an N010 for that matter could be confused for an N019 despite similar antenna size - which BTW brings up an interseting question....what symbol will appear on RWR for an Indian MiG-29K ? :)

[GGTharos]

GG I am not saying that PRFs are the same for the N019 and N001 or too close to be distinguished by the RWR, but suggested that, in case information wasn't available for one of them, that they could have been "slotted together" due to the similarity in design(antenna type, emitter etc) as well as employing the same weapon(R-27R) - i.e. better to have a "29" resolution to work with than an "unknown".

 

I'll agree that they could be slotted together based on threat level and possibly lack of memory for RWR symbols (Eg. Beryoza only has five - not the greatest example, but it works). Intel will tell you exactly which jet you're facing.

 

what symbol will appear on RWR for an Indian MiG-29K ? :)

29K :D Or, going by the propensity for using 2 digit codes, 2K or K9 ... heh :D

[Vekkinho]

Pehaps the same as for a Bars 29 radar installed on Su-30MKI that already participated on Red Flag.

 

what symbol will appear on RWR for an Indian MiG-29K ?

[Alfa]

29K :D Or, going by the propensity for using 2 digit codes, 2K or K9 ... heh :D

 

Hehe well I guess, but then the same radar(Zhuk-M) is also installed in India's MiG-29UPG(recently upgraded baseline MiG-29s) :)

[Alfa]

Pehaps the same as for a Bars 29 radar installed on Su-30MKI that already participated on Red Flag.

 

The Su-30MKI has the N011M "Bars" - the "Bars-29" was, as the name suggests, a smaller version proposed by NiiP for upgrading India's fleet of baseline MiG-29s. It didn't materialise though, since India instead chose NIIR's "Zhuk-M"(same as in the MiG-29K/KUB) for the MiG-29UPG upgrade.

 

If identifying two virtually identical radars(N001 and N019) under the same symbol in the RWR database is to be considered unlikely due difference in antenna size, how would doing so for two totally different radars - "Zhuk-M" with a 625 mm slotted array antenna and "Bars" with a 960 mm PESA antenna make any sense? :D

[GGTharos]

If it's the same radar with the same operating software then I don't see why they'd show different. It's likely that if you can't tell a 15E from a 15C on RWR either, especially now that they're both carrying AESAs (I suspect you could catch a 15E doing a ground-map with somewhat different waveforms than a 15C, in which case you could tell them apart).

 

Hehe well I guess, but then the same radar(Zhuk-M) is also installed in India's MiG-29UPG(recently upgraded baseline MiG-29s) :)

[Alfa]

If it's the same radar with the same operating software then I don't see why they'd show different.

 

Hehe no of course they will show the same and nor would it matter since the threat level(which is what the RWR is about) would be too - just wondering about what label to choose :)