F-15C combat questions

[lunaticfringe]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've long had the thought that the real hangup on the F/A-18C is the radar. Not finding the information, but modelling it within the constraints of what already used in FC, then DCS.

 

You could kill the F/A-18 as a project wholesale, put all of those energies in devising the right methods to move the model of radar two orders of magnitude ahead of where it is now (and it can be done based on what is available in the public domain), and I'd classify it as a fair and reasonable trade, and stand ready, cash in hand, just to get that updated in the F-15C, MiG-29, and Su-27.

 

But that's just me.

[*Rage*]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've long had the thought that the real hangup on the F/A-18C is the radar. Not finding the information, but modelling it within the constraints of what already used in FC, then DCS.

 

You could kill the F/A-18 as a project wholesale, put all of those energies in devising the right methods to move the model of radar two orders of magnitude ahead of where it is now (and it can be done based on what is available in the public domain), and I'd classify it as a fair and reasonable trade, and stand ready, cash in hand, just to get that updated in the F-15C, MiG-29, and Su-27.

 

But that's just me.

 

The Hornet brigade will have you hung, drawn and quartered:)

[TAW_Blaze]

I'd like to have better ECM models, but I doubt it's happening within the next 10 years. :D

[blkspade]

Frostie I have to disagree with your statement that the AIM-120C had a high pk. last week I was flying at 25,000 feet at I launched 3 AIM-120Cs spaced about 5 seconds apart at a bandit head on aspect at 15NM away. all 3 missed and I got smacked by his R-27ER. he was well into lethal range and even if I lost my lock they should have been tracking on their own at that point. There are a lot others that would say AMRAAMs are currently not performing well. I have been learning to fly the su-27 as well and I have to say the r-27er and et are performing much better than the AIM-120Cs.

 

I have pointed this out before, but I know its not common knowledge. Missile in DCS can collide with each other. If you are in accelerating (full burn) there should be no less than 6 seconds between shots in level flight, otherwise subsequent missile overtake the first. If the target happens to maneuver at just the right time in just the right way without out that 6 seconds, the faster missile will track into the other and they'll both explode. I've had it happen several times firing AIM-120s against AI an seeing the missile timer disappear well before reaching 0.

[Oberst Zeisig]

Has anyone thought of, that this theoretical excellent preformance especially of the AMRAAM "on the paper" doesn't apply when its shot against a capable pilot. Its no 100% pk just because its launched inside 8nm. In DCS there are many excellent pilots who have exploited hundreds und thousands of possible maneuvers against radar missiles including mostly all factors at one time as range, kinetics, notch, countermeasures and terrain. Which pilot can say this in reality. Who ever trained against a real amraam. Most hits in real world are against far inferior enemys who never had the slightest possibility to do anything against it.

 

So my main point ist that the excellent missile perfomance and 100% pk probably mostly stands only on the paper and tables.

 

S!

 

 

For what's worth its not just the AMRAAM its all missiles. I was having a long range BVR mission online over flat terrain just now and ended up wasting all my 8 missiles and achieved mutual annihilation by guns. Nobody respects the radar weapons anymore. The only fun fights are those with shorter ranges between bases with lots of mountains in between.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Oberst Zeisig

[GGTharos]

Has anyone thought of, that this theoretical excellent preformance especially of the AMRAAM "on the paper" doesn't apply when its shot against a capable pilot. Its no 100% pk just because its launched inside 8nm.

 

No, it's pretty high Pk. Have you considered that the missile really is that dangerous?

Sure, it might not hit because you managed to quickly get into a good notch, and you luckily notched both aircraft and missile, so the aircraft-missile datalink isn't telling the thing exactly where you are. But both radars are looking for you (and they know where to look for you - worse yet, the missile actually knows to reposition to bring you out of the notch), and you now have the choice of waiting until you believe the missile is out of position to re-acquire, or risk coming out of the notch early. Every moment you're in the notch, you lose a SA, and the bandit is closing with positional advantage.

 

But wait, maybe you think you can come out of the notch and DODGE the thing kinematically ... nope! It still has a huge amount of energy and will defeat you through 9g maneuvers.

 

The moment you come out of the notch, there will be a follow-on shot. You won't even have time to acquire to fire back.

 

Even if you notch all the way to the merge, that bandit is now on your six.

 

In DCS there are many excellent pilots who have exploited hundreds und thousands of possible maneuvers against radar missiles including mostly all factors at one time as range, kinetics, notch, countermeasures and terrain. Which pilot can say this in reality. Who ever trained against a real amraam. Most hits in real world are against far inferior enemys who never had the slightest possibility to do anything against it.

I talk to pilots who train with the real deal quite often. You don't want AMRAAMs or R-77's coming at you. Or late model AIM-7's.

 

So my main point ist that the excellent missile perfomance and 100% pk probably mostly stands only on the paper and tables.

 

S!

There is no 100% performance on paper. The actual performance is leaps and bounds above what it is in DCS; the most advanced missiles in DCS are far too easy to defeat at ranges where they should really be a lot more dangerous.

[blkspade]

Unfortunately the AIM-7 is highly unreliable outside of flood mode. After watching them easily go for chaff head-on against an AI Su-27 barely even attempting any kind of evasion, I'm really not so keen about using them in MP. Though it occurs to me now there may be a bug with AIM-7 guidance when fired when STT is transitioned from TWS. I'm way more confident in being able to get Aim-9 kills than 7 though.

[GGTharos]

The 7 is not the only missile experiencing this issue.

[104th_Maverick]

Flood mode = BOSS!

 

I still carry at least 2 7's at all times in case I need to get all sexy on someone! :D

[GGTharos]

Gain visual from the start. Put that TD box in the HuD when you can, and keep your eyes on him. Yes, zoom in if you need to.

 

If you can't gain visual, don't close with him - turn around and get some separation before things get too close.

 

If you really HAVE to search for him because you got too close, put the radar in auto-guns and spin around, but realize that he can pop up - or down - and be over or under the plane you are scanning.

 

What tactics do you use to stay on a bandit when it gets too close? Keep turning around and searching? Keep the radar on and scan? Or just don't lose sight of them in the first place?

[Oberst Zeisig]

;2004992']Flood mode = BOSS!

 

I still carry at least 2 7's at all times in case I need to get all sexy on someone! :D

 

 

You got me several times with AIM120, I can remember only one time with AIM7 :P

[blkspade]

;2004992']Flood mode = BOSS!

 

I still carry at least 2 7's at all times in case I need to get all sexy on someone! :D

 

It is fun to watch someone uselessly pop only flares and in response to an AIM-7 shot. Against my better judgement I did this head on against a Su-27 the other day just to see how he'd respond. Though me manged to get an r-73 off on me, he seemed to think it was an IR missile coming at him.

[104th_Maverick]

You got me several times with AIM120, I can remember only one time with AIM7 :P

 

Cause your normally firing R-77s back at me :D

 

I'll hook you up with some more Aim7s over the next few days ;)

 

It is fun to watch someone uselessly pop only flares and in response to an AIM-7 shot. Against my better judgement I did this head on against a Su-27 the other day just to see how he'd respond. Though me manged to get an r-73 off on me, he seemed to think it was an IR missile coming at him.

 

 

Yeah baby!

 

There is also nothing more exciting / nerve racking in the game for an Eagle pilot than a Flood Mode shot.... Will he see me? Will he fire back? Love them!!!

[GGTharos]

The topic is combat tactics for an F-15.

[blkspade]

Yeah, I almost never try for a flood mode shot head on because of the risk involved. It would probably be more prudent to go vert scan from flood to at least allow yourself to maneuver.

[*Rage*]

Unfortunately the AIM-7 is highly unreliable outside of flood mode. After watching them easily go for chaff head-on against an AI Su-27 barely even attempting any kind of evasion, I'm really not so keen about using them in MP. Though it occurs to me now there may be a bug with AIM-7 guidance when fired when STT is transitioned from TWS. I'm way more confident in being able to get Aim-9 kills than 7 though.

 

Welcome to my world.

[104th_Maverick]

Yeah, I almost never try for a flood mode shot head on because of the risk involved. It would probably be more prudent to go vert scan from flood to at least allow yourself to maneuver.

 

 

I only shoot head on Flood Mode if I'm 100% sure he doesn't see me, generally I only use it if the bandit is not HOT on me but most of the time its handy for chasing bandits down as they get no launch warning as you know.

 

For anyone who hasn't tried it best thing to do is close down the range as fast as you can on a bandit who is extending away and pop a few Flood shots at him, less chance of him maneuvering provided he doesn't see the shots!

 

Another favorite is to fire Flood mode at someone who is engaging a friendly if your close enough... he won't see it coming :D

 

But against a head on target who see's you its VERY risky like you said and should be avoided!

[Oberst Zeisig]

Looking forward to it ;).

 

You are almost the only player who mostly reacquires me when I come out of the cover (notch, but esp. terrain), most players can't reacquire lock very fast even when they know roughly roundabout where I am. I sometimes wonder how You do it. ??

 

And silly question, what signal do You get when fired at in flood mode? Lock warning? I never get killed by AIM7s :P

 

 

;2005009']Cause your normally firing R-77s back at me :D

 

I'll hook you up with some more Aim7s over the next few days ;)

[GGTharos]

You will get a lock warning if the FLOOD pattern is on you, and a launch warning when the missile is launched.

 

This isn't correct behavior, but it is what it is in the game.

[104th_Maverick]

You are almost the only player who mostly reacquires me... I sometimes wonder how You do it. ??

 

Cause I'm a boss

 

Seriously though its down to good SA (<- most important) and lots of practice and experience, most of the time I am guessing what you will be doing next.. having good SA makes it easier to do this and make good predictions.... I also have 1000s of hours flying in FC2 and FC3 and train hard with my guys in the 104th, if you work hard enough at something... you get really good at it ;)

 

And silly question, what signal do You get when fired at in flood mode? Lock warning? I never get killed by AIM7s

 

You will get no launch or lock warning when fired on by an F-15 in Flood mode... all you will get is the signal from your RWR that your being painted... that's why these kills are so damn sexy :D

 

edit:

 

GG you sure bro? Current implementation is as I described above mate

Edited February 24, 2014 by [Maverick]

[blkspade]

Yeah everyone who has ever cared to comment after being killed in flood mode mention getting no launch notification.

[GGTharos]

FLOOD is called this way for a reason. It blasts an HPRF waveform out of a horn (NOT the radar antenna), used to guide an AIM-7. It's the same as going STT on someone from their perspective.

 

So if you're only getting a search indication from it, it's extra wrong.

 

@blkspade: That would be correct. Either an STT + launch indication the moment the FLOOD hits them, or just STT warning. Anything else is incorrect.

 

;2005095']GG you sure bro? Current implementation is as I described above mate

[104th_Maverick]

Been this way since FC2 GG....

 

Looks like we need to have a look at this!

[Oberst Zeisig]

;2005095']

Seriously though its down to good SA (<- most important) and lots of practice and experience, most of the time I am guessing what you will be doing next.. having good SA makes it easier to do this and make good predictions.... I also have 1000s of hours flying in FC2 and FC3 and train hard with my guys in the 104th, if you work hard enough at something... you get really good at it ;)

 

Thought its that way. I´m still a novice, but I´m catching up. :P

[lunaticfringe]

;2005009']There is also nothing more exciting / nerve racking in the game for an Eagle pilot than a Flood Mode shot.... Will he see me? Will he fire back? Love them!!!

 

That's because you're doing it wrong. FLOOD was designed for terminating leakers exiting from the fight.

 

However, because multiple tools at the F-15's discretion that would help solve this aren't available, I'm not going to knock you for the ingenuity to use it creatively. :D