IronsightSniper

You'd also see that Raptors hate rain :P

Derp. Stupid google :V

I never said that Air forces are giving up ARH missiles, but what I was saying is that if you're only carrying 1 type of missile(in this case, 8 AIM-120), than if the enemy succeeds in jamming them, you're pretty much getting choked by your achilles heel. And no, if you're carrying 8 AIM-120's in a technologically capable airspace(say against the same numbers of MiGs), then it would be logical for them to carry their maximum loadout of R-77s. And it would also be logical to carry jamming equipment for such missiles. So that would basically mean a BVR shootout but bothsides are hindered by ECW, and when the fight gets close, everybody would die. It's only logical to carry a mix of weapons, such as 4 AIM-120s and 4 AIM-9X, so that the enemy would have to utilize both Radar and IR jamming. Of course, you could always carry the mystical and non-existant R-74AE-PD or R-74E-PD. Long range of the newest R-27 variants, but with a high maneuverability seeker head. Sounds magical :cry: Actually, I think I found the Eagle you're looking for!

I'd suppose for air-superiority missions over skies with low-capability bogies? Any sensible Air Force would never just spam their technologically capable enemies with the same missiles, as jamming that would bottleneck them and leave pidgeons to be roasted.

Oh sorry, I read some talk about MiGs and R-77's about 2 pages back, I thought the topic was already derailed. I shall try my hand at locating the requested image, will be back!

:O They lied to me! Anyways, haven't read the thread yet(I'll get to it after breakfast!), but is this the MiG you're looking for?

Actually, I heard from a guy over at another Defense forum who stated that the markings on those missiles(i.e. the black stripes) indicates a dud weapon. Those R-77's appears to be real(UNLESS THOSE RUSSIANS ARE QUITE BRILLIANT AND HAS FOOLED US AGAIN!). Anywho, way back at the last post in Page 5, Pilotasso said that the R-77 doesn't exist or fielded?! Blasphemy! Rawr!

:O RCS estimates(preferably Official figures) NOW!

Ah, still quite large in my opinion, I'm just too impatient to wait until they finish it, that's all. I hope the kinematics they got from sacrificing stealth pays off.

So, the biggest question, anybody but Carlo Kopp have estimates on it's RCS? I know that part of the craft isn't "finished" yet, but it would help in my Russian fan-boy arguments :p

BM-30 Smerch?

So, 1 picture of the HUD of a F-16 decisively proves that the AIM-120 outranges the R-77? I don't think so buddy. Also, the maximum ranges in that picture of the R-27 goes from 72 to 130 km, compared to the 100 km on the export R-77. I really don't see how the miraculous fact that the AIM-120 outranges them all are present. As for GG, what reasons are there to deny them as "useful" sources? And really, one pilot telling me what to feel about another guy is not something I would trust. In any case, any chances of a F/A-18E/F meeting a equally trained/equipped Su-30 would most likely occur in the Pacific or Mediterreanean, as for AWACs and ECW, that's a whole nother argument. Even though I like the Su-30 and it's compliment of missiles, in reality, the Su-30 in Indonesia that the Superbugs in Australia might be facing are: low in numbers, poorely trained, poorely equipped(AA-2 ffs), and above all else, logistically incompatiable to the Superbug. So yeah, in a realistic scenario, the Superbug would reign supreme over Indonesia, you can make a good plane but it won't work without good pilots.

I call http://www.deagle.com and http://www.enemyforces.com to the stands. If exec does not disagree, I might as well call Carlo Kopp to the stands. GG so far has posted a diagram of a semi-circle with numbers. Not much explanation.

But if you really don't know, and you don't think I know, then why are you talking about facts? Yes, you have no hard facts regarding the detection range of the APG-79. As for "me not knowing and you not knowing", it was a simple statement that nothing is better than facts, don't get too ancy :music_whistling: Oh but I did, a Su-30 with plasma stealth pretty much negates the gap of the RCS advantage of the Superbug. If you want, we can make each other cite every statement we made, so, give me all your proof regarding all your claims. I cited Deagle.com and Enemyforces.com, you should go back to caring about this thread. :smilewink: Having the same sources over again only means redundency. Having no sources like yourself means spineless claims. You use original research, I go by the books. You are not willing to accept me, and I am not willing to accept you. Face it, we've both been failing and so has everyone here.

Keep complaining about sources. You have no source, no basis for comparison, and you just admitted it. As for the radar equation, it is relatively moot as there is no info on the RCS of the Su-30. We can assume, but nothing is like facts, right? Heh, isn't anything in RnD a pipe dream? Just because it's not being developed to the point of implication does not mean it does not exist. Eh? People started realizing how degraded and derailed this thread was back at page 26, so I just took the opportunity and argued my side again. As for your simplistic attacks, "I stopped caring" meant for this thread only, does not mean I instantaneously forgot everything, because if I did, I would get brainwashed by Military channel again. Pff, really? Unless the F/A-18E/F is stationed 10 klicks above the Su-30, it's AIM-120 will have no advantage over the R-77, who's range is still superior to the AIM-120, dispite every single piece of no evidence you presented. I didn't know you had a mass spectrometer too :O Because you don't need a source to see the lies which engulfs you.

Meh, you just can't stop your ad hominems can you? I already admitted that I have no source other than Carlo Kopp for the detection ranges of his radars. You have still yet to give me any evidence to the F/A-18E/F's radar's detection capabilities. And no, Plasma Stealth is not a "pipe-dream", simply disregarding competitive technologies is a sign of ignorance. Moar info. Yes, I do admit I stopped caring for this thread after page 4 because after that it was spam of ad hominems against Kopp and a back and forth by Exec and Vault. If you do have the source, repost them now while they're sleeping. Another ad hominem. Your position won't elongate your range beyond it's physical capabilities. And your sauce has no mass. Those inside the bubble, don't know when it's going to pop.

The burden of proof is on you my friend, now you have to post a graph of the APG-79 and it's detection ranges against various RCS :awesome: Also, not a plenty of literature on Plasma stealth but on the skim chance that a Plasma stealth system is implemented on the R-27, it would reduce it's RCS to 0.1 meter squared :o

Got a problem?

No, the only source that has that is Carlo Kopp and the last time that I used him for anything you guys expanded this thread by 23 pages, so, not gonna go there. But really, I'm working on the basis that if the S-400 can lock on to a 0.05 meter squared target from 90 km away, the BARS or whatever model of the Su-30 you choose for this brainstorm should be able to detect a 0.1 meter squared target from at least 50 km away, but there are a bunch of arguments you can make, bigger radars, different conditions, etc etc, so until you people stop your ad hominem on Carlo, I can't say that for certain no. But at the same time, you can't say that the Superbug's radar can do the same. I don't see any sources? As for your argument of the Superbug's tactical advantage, what's it gonna do? Get a higher altitude? In BVR combat it doesn't really matter the position(s) you start out with, only your missile and your electronics would matter. Only in a WVR environment would detecting first matter, as one could hide behind a mountain and do a sneak attack with a WVRAAM. And you continue sauceless. Your "combat charts" are nothing but bits and pixels right now, please materialize them. Most certainly so. It's me with 2 sauces and you with nilch. I don't wanna ad hominem you, but you're not doing so well. All the speed yet we are 20 years back in time. We must be going FTL :O

Missile and fuel load outs changed. Le sigh, I have cited my source, time to cite yours. Deagle.com states the AIM-120C has a max kinematic range of 48 km, with the R-77's at 80 km(but due to range discrepancies I have decided to shorten it to a compromise of 65 km). As for the RCS, the Superbug does have a smaller RCS, but it's not small enough to get it within AIM-120 launching range before the Su-30 spots it. Kak, since we do not know the variants of the R-27 the Indonesians would be using, it could be the baselin R-27 or maybe even the R-27AE, which has a max stated range of 130 km, and taking into your complex math of dividing stated ranges by half, that would make it 65 km. Still out ranging the AIM-120. Sauce. Max detection range goes to the Superbug. Missile superiority goes to the Flanker. I agree, Speed is life, another nail in the coffin to NATO strategic thought.

Thank you :D As for the derailment of the thread, I am sorry to have ever called upon Carlo Kopp to give you his analysis, it was wrong of me to put such an indiscriminate, biased, and to put it at minimum, wrong man, to stand for my case for the Su-30, Anywho, we're not talking about Tankers, or Electronic warfare variants, just 2 front-line combat variants against each other. In my opinion, the most likely scenario would be a flight of F/A-18E/F's with a ground-attack and air-superiority armament flying across the Pacific to attack Indonesian front-line radars. Somehow, them radars spot the F/A-18E/F's, and air-superiority loadout Su-30s are scrambled. Depending on the range of intercept, the F/A-18E/F would have the first look/shot advantage, but depending on the training(which is irrelevent in this thread's scenario), it would be up to the F/A-18/E/F's individual pilots to calculate the percise time to fire, as if the Su-30's are in the no-escape zone, they would be toast, however, with the range advantages of the R-77 over the AIM-120(information courtesy of http://www.deagle.com), the no escape zones for the R-77 would be at a longer range than the AIM-120's. Because in my stated scenario, Superbugs are already at JSAW ranges of the Indonesian radars, they would of been detected by now, and depending on the distance between the nearest Indonesian air force base compared to the radar being struck, the Su-30 should be in detection range of the F/A-18E/F and vice versa. In this scenario, the R-27's exceptionally long range and high end-game maneuverbility would make the no escape zone so large, that if it was not a mission kill for the F/A-18E/F, it would of been a confirmed kill for it. As for BVR combat, say 2 flights of Su-30 and F/A-18E/F converge somewhere in the middle of the Pacific, my hand still goes to the Su-30. Because I'm just not going to use Carlo Kopp's data on Su-30's radars, and I can't find any sources who straight-forwardly say which radar can detect what at how many kilometers, I'm just going to assume that the F/A-18E/F can detect the Su-30 well within AIM-120 range and the Su-30 can detect the F/A-18E/F at R-27-R-77 range. Therefor, radar detection wise, would allow both sides to fire their missiles at their max kinematic range, however, after that it would be more or less of a game of chicken, who's gonna mid-course guid their missiles and who's gonna do the Cobra.

Hence, the MaRV :p

Well, the stated accuracy for the previous model of DF-21's was a 40 m CEP, so a volley of DF-21Ds should have a pretty good chance of making hits most of the time. As far target tracking, China has SAR and Optical satelites all beyond the reach of U.S. ASAT missiles, so target tracking would be fine. As for enemy defeat mechanisms, I was wondering the definition of a MaRV because a quasi-ballistic missile is far harder to hit with KEKV, such as the one on the SM-3. Although I do agree that the DF-21D isn't going to guarantee Chinese denial of American Pacific Dominance, it sure as hell is going to shake the region up, and unless America adapts to the DF-21D sufficiently and soon, we are doomed to lose the Pacific.

I am curious to the definition of a MaRV, basically what I am wondering is if a MaRV is capable of doing evasive maneuvers such as zig zags and the such to avoid a hit from a Kinetic energy kill vehicle? If a MaRV does what I think it does than a SM-3 is going to have a harder time making a kill of it, not to mention that there wouldn't be only one DF-21D's fired in a possible engagement, but more likely a large volley.

Le sigh, why must you people always attack the source but never the claims? Anywho, 3 sources for that CH-47 getting downed by a Afghan insurgant-manned MANPAD. http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx (page 27, it lists it as an RPG attack, however) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/world/asia/31iht-31afghan.5946623.html?_r=1 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7910482/Wikileaks-Afghanistan-Taliban-used-heat-seeker-missiles-against-Nato-helicopter.html