Mirage

:D J'ai toujours du mal а croire que tu sois des nфtres , mais j'espиre avoir des circonstances attйnuantes .Si tu es rйellement de l'Hexagone , nous sommes confrontйs quotidiennement а une hostilitй sans prйcedent а notre йgard sur les forums anglophones depuis 2003 , et le sujet du Rafale et du Mirage sont extremements sensibles , car ils relиvent d'un des fleurons de notre industrie nationale , qui s'est courronnйe de succйs et que certains voudraient nous voir perdre . Si tu as йtй honnкte et franc , je veux avec la plus grande courtoisie , t'exprimer mes excuses sincиres car l'aggressivitй et le denigrement dont tu as fait preuve а tort et sans substance sur le Mirage (qui n'est d'ailleurs absolument pas adulй en France ou idealisй ;) ) dans ton premier post , me semblait relever d'un sentiment passionel et nйgatif destinй а faire mauvaise publicitй et rabaisser notre nation , pardonne moi si ce n'est pas le cas , droiture et respect sont d'une grande importance а mes yeux , et je ne faisais que dйfendre notre bien commun qui йtait injustement dйnigrй ;) :) Le succйs financier est liй а des causes gйopolitiques , lorsque tu vends plus cher car ton industrie est plus petite , ta fiscalitй moins avantageuse , et uniquement l'avion en lui-mкme , tout en йtant regardant sur les transferts de technologies , tu ne gagneras jamais les marchйs sous influence Americaine et Russe , qui eux proposent une protection ou coopйration militaire , un soutien politique et stratйgique , de multiples contrats annexes (energie , investissements massifs divers ) , des prix plus avantageux ou dans certains cas comme celui d'Israel , des transferts technologiques plus importants . D'enormes pressions sont faites йgalement au niveau йconomique et politique pour conquйrir les marchйs , et la France n'йtant pas une superpuissance , nous ne faisons pas le poids . Du reste , la France ne cherche pas vraiment а vendre desespйrement , dans le cas de l'Inde par exemple , Dassault йtait rйticent quant а des transferts de tech trop importants , et le succйs а l'export n'est pas une condition pour la poursuite de nos projets et programmes , cela servirait uniquement а faire baisser le prix а l'achat et accйlerer les intйgrations et modernisations des appareils . Nous sommes donc dans une situation , ou les clients potentiels , qui sont politiquement capables de ne pas acheter US ou Russes sont trйs rares (pays Europeens , Maroc , Lybie , quelques rares pays du Moyen Orient ) , donc il n'est pas йtonnant qu'aucun export n'ait йtй conclus jusqu'a prйsent , mais зa ne saurait tarder , avec le standard F3 , au pire , зa ne change rien pour nous , on a un avion extrкmement performant , qui donne donc pleine satisfaction а tous les niveaux dans ses confrontations techniques et rйelles avec ses concurrents , et qui va etre considйrablement amйliorй dans les annйes а venir .

No But really , stop ridiculizing yourself , not only you display mistake after mistake , i correct you and you don't answer , but you lie on your identity and know nothing about our aeronautics . Rafale cheap ?? LOL ! do you even know the price of only the plane ? where did you read that (and you say you're french ... ) you say Mirage crap ? you say Mirage laughable range ? you compare old Mirage with newer planes in vast superiority wthout knowing the context ? tell bulsshit about why they fly high ? want me to bring infos when the net is full of praise for this aircraft ? you don't even know to start with that they are many models ? spout crap about why Mirage to stop to fund Rafale (how stupid lol ..) ? man you're just pathetic . you mean the super Etendard of the late 60's that is used until now by Airforce , that is navalized , helps in Afghanistan and sunk two British vessels in the "Malouines" (you liar, you ain't french for sure ) ,HMS Sheffield and Conveyor ? They didn't sold 7000 good planes , they sold 7000 excellent planes actually , having always been at the forefront of technology since the 50's . Now you say Rafale was bought to counter Typhoon and you say you're French ? HAhahahahahaha , what a hater , be at least courageous and tell us your identity, show some balls and stop the ridicule with such statements. so you say you're French eh ? what 's your nick on checksix then ? post in French a bit , beware of babelfish , let's see what people more patient than me will answer the gross ignorance you display and passion to slag us on check six forums .. why would a French with a non-French nick would post on an international english-speakingforum to slag for free .. For your education , Typhoon was started and planned also with France , and France has nothing to prove they "can stand alone" , how silly , we build planes since more than 1 century and pionnered aviation , this is a stupid cliche from a non-French that is a 200% certainty , or next time you might tell me we've done Rafale because we were arrogant ?? lmao France needed navalized plane , other partners didn't , France wanted high technology transfer , but BAE was kept to secret on stealth work linked to JSF program , Euro fighter was a money eater and long slow starting project , so we left EF-project to continue the same project but on our own for a 4,5+ generation aircraft responding to our requirements , here are your main reasons among others, both planes have common design elements . Jeopardized its costs LOL !!! no but really , you're the most inept French hater i've ever seen , next time im sure your colleagues will try something more sophisticated , Rafale is not only in extremely succesful financially , came in time , respect delays , costed much less than EF (even Italy lowered its orders yesterday) and will be upgraded to newer and F3 standard for AdA starting a few months , so you're speaking total crap , but when you say "counter" Typhoon" , lol , both project started at the same time , and if anything, we did the Rafale , like we'll do a 5th gen plane (likely with our German , Spanish etc.. neighbours) when it's required , cause we needed it and cause the Mirage dating of the late 1970's , early 80's were old platform . So what will you come up with ? start speaking about no exports yet and changing the subject to mask your lacks ? we don't care , we got fully independant funds for research and development , you hate it that we produce excellent stuffs , we know it very well , and it will boost us to do everything and do even more and even better to maintain our independance . If a war breaks out with shipping routes threatened , you 'll be happy that European countries are still at the top of technology in electronics and aeronautics and also produce all kind of military materials instead of depending on foreign equipement and shipment . well that is if you are european . Bring me experts interview you tell me ? tell me , what is the use of talking with such an idiot who post only for slagging and belittling one country ? It's like someone who doesn't know what the moon is , asking for an astronom's expertise .. i'm out , don't want to upset the mods and/or readers , answer what you want , all your "points" were void or greatly inncaurate , i already made the mistake to answer you in the first place anyway , that plays in your provokation game

Yeah , and mine is Robert John Foster Jr from Australia , no wait , New Zealand .. you should have said Malouines , it supposed to be your mother tongue no ? at the second attempt you miss , it says something. Are you really silly or ? Mirage 2000-5 is 1 generation behind Rafale , Rafale is omni-role and was designed to replace any existant type of plane in the AdA , it was planned more than 15 years ago that Mirage would stop . Now you don't know that and you tell me you're French and display serious BS ? Dassault have sold over 7000 planes in its life , so they know what they're doing , anyhow , national crap like you say , is rather lucidity and knowledge of the subject than anything else , Greece took Mirage 2000-5mk2 , nothing about emotions , seeing the ignorance you displayed before , i take it u surely know better than dozens of customers and military experts who spent millions dollars in it since 30 years after all , maybe read books , discuss with educated people about it , honestly u seem like you make your opinion out of wikipedia , i guess the topic starter will be glad of your contribution meant to slag and belittle one country's plane , you're not obliged to download his mod , maybe saying thanks and wishing him good luck for his work shared would be nicer , i don't know .

yep true sorry mate , i was quite pished when i wrote in a hasty way :) i will edit it , indeed , III , not F1 :)

I highly doubt any French could speak like this , for sure , such Frenchman is not yet born , seems more like you 're a French hater without having the slightest idea you're are speaking about . There is one simple proof that completely betrays you , and that is the way you spelled "Malwins" , no French would ever do that ,as well as the structure of your sentences . I can't be bothered to answer in details , but would be good for you to know that they are many models very different , F1 , III , IV , 2000C etc.. , initial turn rate is better than F-16 on a 2000-5 and arguably and according to many experts , at least as good if not superior in air-to-air (except latest blocks ) , manoeuvrability is very good including supersonic , it has fought in 1991 Desert storm , Mirage III were equipping Israel s in their war against Egypt etc. and played a very important role for Israeli airforce , Mirage have been sold to many air forces for 30 years who use also other countrie's plane , and they always have compared very well , often favourable , for instance , pilots of India and Greece love the airplane , autonomy on 2000-5 of this mod is 1500km , with internal tank , a bit more than 1000km , which is good , Argentinians had only 19 old Mirages , less well trained pilots and many other factors that explain why they flew higher intervene actually , like big naval presence , numerical inferiority etc.. well anyway , i can 't be bothered .. maybe it's time to take your medication and leave France alone , if you just come here to crap up a people and a thread of someone willing to share kindly something with the community . Take example on the Russians , we sometimes had political disagreements in the past , but we always kept a high respect and affection for Russia and its people and they always respected us too , that is what i call educated and healthy relationships , i'm really tired of seeing people of always the same 2-3 countries have a go and try to slag us ..

Great work ! you are really teasing me here :D thanks a lot for your mod , i'm eager to see that by myself :)

Good luck and thanks for your mod , i might give it a try , when is it out ?

I have been taught to answer with arguments and not belittle other people's countries , but fair enough . It's very likely that is has more stealth , besides we cannot not have a clue because most of stealth features in the Rafale are strictly classified , so it says a bit about the intention of your post as you bring judgement on a plane you cannot have information on , but i will answer one last post as it is off-topic ;) What you can see of stealth element on Rafale is next to the extremity of wings and on the canard empennage features and the dedication about this element since the beggining of the project is high , that's why i think this , and besides it is backed by reality and real life exercises with Swiss pilots and in other events where Rafale shone and got the highest esteem of International military experts and pilots , both Eurofighter and Rafale have stealth , Rafale has a smaller profile . Rafale is Europe's Top of the line as much as Typhoon (and the Gripen by the way which will be further improved ) , initially , the project had to be common and started at the same time , but as i said before , France wanted also a carrier based plane and multi-role one . Both planes answered different needs of European Air Forces and will work together . Besides , top and finest European electronic and aeronautic firms are British , French or partly French (Thales , EADS , Alcatel etc.. ) German and partly German as well Swedish (they have a very good airforce and plane ) and those who spend more on military Research are UK and France . About the attack on my country's technology (which is esteemed by worldwide military experts ) you should ask the Indian Air Force pilots or Greek Air Force what they think of their Mirage 2000-5 , they are far more reliable and unbiased about this , they love the plane , Mirage was an international success , so your statement apart from being unkind is untrue , most of world Armies are using helicopters , tanks , missiles , planes , ships etc.. of France , or using its rockets to send satellites or trains , engines etc.. and transfers of technology between European countries like France and Germany is high as strong allies , both planes are of the same generation and use comparable technology , the difference is in the role , one is specialized in air superiority while still being able to carry ground attack ops , the other gives a little in aerial superiority to be able to perform all kind of tasks and operations , from nuclear vectoring , sub harassing , aerial superiorty , ground attack etc.. Btw , i had many problems with my Opel car these last two years , but i still keep in the highest esteem , the savoir-faire and quality of manufacturing of our German friends , beyond the fact that comparing the quality standards of the civilian and affordable technology with standards of quality of the top military material is a bit silly i have to say . Also prices reflects the technology handed and components but also the cost of development .... in this industry and in this context of competition , nobody has interest to raise the prices really

Well AFAIK , The Typhoon is larger and doesn't have as much advanced stealth technology of the Rafale (F-22 and in a lesser extent F-35 are in a completely different league , much more stealthy of course , at the slight expense of aerodynamic performances apparently ,as i read that the F-22 has more or less same performance in manoeuvrability , acceleration , climb rate as the F-15 acording to General Everest Riccioni of USAAF : http://www.pogo.org/m/dp/dp-fa22-Riccioni-03082005.pdf , its superiority will come mainly from the most advanced electronic technology/avionic and stealth ) , the cross section of Rafale is diminished by a factor of 20 compared to Mirage 2000-5 . Both aircraft were conceived at the same time , Typhoon cannot perform deep penetration in ennemy lines or chase on sea like Rafale , it has twice less fuel in external and thus far less range , and a bigger profile . Typhoon has been conceived initially to be a supersonic interceptor/air superiority (but with good capabilities in ground attack ) , and probably will be the best at this in the years to come (with F-22 and a future Russian plane surely :) ) , its aerodynamics and profile , engines have been optimized for this task . The choice of a pivotal wing delta , centre of gravity very excentrated are excellent to have high supersonic manoeuvrability but on the other hand , in high subsonic speed at low altitude air-to-ground operation isn't very good , and it will take a lot of time and energy to change that in the Typhoon . The position of its pylons handicaps the Typhoon for air-to-ground( Amraam position ) thus the designation nacelle will lack visibilty and it prevents it to take more heavy air-to ground weapons (UK , Italy , Holland etc.. will have F-35 for these tasks and Spain , Germany will have models for this too ) , also its radar for air-to-ground with mechanical antennas is of little use compared to the PESA of Rafale or AESA technology of the Super Hornet . Maximum range of a radar doesn't compensate its agility and can be double edged (ennemy can spot you from much farther than your radar can see ) , Typhoon will be a superb interceptor with ground pounding ability , probably the best interceptor , but will never be able to perform long missions of penetration behind ennemy lines or struggle on seas against vessels, submarines etc.. or be as good in air-to-ground ( take less armament , and currently less equipped for this ) because it cannot compete with the Super Hornet and Rafale for this and will be easier to spot for the ennemy , but in air-air , it is true that it has for the moment more punch as the engine is more powerful ( but EF is also heavier ) , better performance in supersonic , better RCS , although everything will change in a few years for both planes in this aspect . For example , on Rafale there is the Magic II with vectorial thrust , biggest "nose" in the world and data link , SPECTRA detection exclusive to Rafale , special EOS sensors , and soon , OSF MkII , new more powerful Snecma M-88-3 reactor that consumes less etc.. will be integrated , for instance at this present moment (will change in just a few years ) , Typhoon who is the latest a/c has a radar advantage on Rafale with "Captor " , it can track 20 targets at 160 km , but more efficient system will be installed soon on Rafales , thus the advantage disappears . I still think Rafale has the better airframe , and will need only small retouches to further improve it , and that Typhoon will be the best European asset for pin-point air defence and superiority over the borders , both EF-2000 and Rafale are 4/5 generation plane , and will evolve a lot in the next 20-25 years , before a real 5th generation project comes out to match the F-22 or future Russian planes in effectiveness and technology advancement (hopefully :) ) , sorry for my English if i made mistakes , but at least i try :) .

The Rafale is slightly behind the Typhoon in the aerial superiority role , as it was designed as an omni-role aircraft , Typhoon has more powerful engine and a radar that has more range and especially a better RCS for the moment and has been designed from the beggining for superiority in the air even though now they regret that it lacks in air-to-ground . Rafale outperformed any aircraft in front of him in all real exercices , and it's still a magnificent and one of the very finest fighter currently and comparable to the Typhoon , because it has stealth elements as opposed to Typhoon , radar signature way harder to spot , and has a lot of EOS advanced sensors and a very good manoeuvrability in CAC , but especially almost twice the range loaded and some of the very best ECM currently . Moreover the current generation Rafale F2 will be considerably updated in the next few years in missile (ie:Meteor , like Typhoon) but especially with Thales working on lastest avionic technology to implement in the next few years (powerful radar in BVR , not necessarily with big range but quality as the more you have radar range , the more the ennemy can spot you from even farther , actually , many Mirage of the French AdA limit their radar range on purpose in the majority of their operations . I'd still probably prefer to have a couple Typhoon/F-35 because it offers more choice and flexibility for the mission (F-35 will be better for Air-to Ground , and Typhoon slightly better in air-to-air ) than having only one Rafale model to do everything , but it's considerably more expensive too , whereas with the Rafale to endorse all roles , you save money and get one of the 3 best performer of the next 20 years in most roles . Anyhow it's hard to compare now , because much of the important datas are classified or not known by us and both Rafale and EF-2000 will considerably evolve in avionics in the future , i'm happy for Europe that we can produce 2 fine planes, they will be complementary :)

Thanks Colt for the link , here 's another one http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SAS73/2456/ :) Rogue , that's the reason why France pulled out of Eurofighter project , we wanted a navalized and truly multi-role aircraft unlike our partners said they had no interest to do that , this was the main reason , had we made Typhoon (which is by the way using many similar things to the Rafale ) with the other partners , it would have costed us too much money and we'd have been obliged to get another aircraft navalized model like F-35 , which implies even more money spent .

Not really :D Both countries have always been allied since USA was created , despite twice having a clash in the 60's and upon the Iraq war , mainly because France has always wanted to remain totally independant from anyone in foreign policy , relations currently are quite good actually . a real ally should tell you when he disagrees and will always stand by your side if you are really threatened , if the sovereignity of your country and people is under a real danger . It's not new , some American military come in France for a part of their formation , just like all French Navy pilots go to complete part of their graduation in the US , especially in the carrier landing ops and the cooperation of the land forces (army) is also a reality since a long time . This exercice of Rafale landing on USS Enterprise is mainly because both Airforce cooperate more and more , and France has its nuclear a/c carrier CDG that will be in maintenance for some months , and there is a real need of not stopping the training of French Navy pilots among other things . Here is a video : http://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/base/mediatheque/videos/rafale_sur_uss_enterprise

Yep , great article , can't wait to have Flamming Cliffs ! :prayer: