rlogue

I'm not so sure that the idea was to survive the BVR engagement and "press" to a WVR, I think the whole idea is they use the datalink, AWACS, etc to vector them into a surprise intercept and fire undetected ... thus avoiding the BVR engagement. I'm definately not swearing to this ... but I am sure I've read this somewhere how the russians rely very heavily on AWACS. Which if this is true, ED has modelled this quite nicely .. the datalink is great in the game for sneaking around undetected.

I have ran across somewhere an article that the airforce is considering removing the guns from our fighters .. I realize that this doesn't mean anything .. but I'm sure that it has been tossed around quite a bit.

This is a true statement !

I can see situations where flying straight is a good idea, but not from close range with multiple missiles coming at you .. I think I grasp this as well as anybody does. The only right answer I think, is don't be in a position where 4 missiles are coming at you .. that's the tactic ... not let him shoot and spoof them ... don't let him shoot , in this game, it's not dangerous to be in this situation.

How is a knife fight unrealistic ???? when's the last guns kill you heard about ?? Vietnam maybe ? Sure they practice it .. but they don't do it much. That's what missiles are for, if the F-15 is in a knife fight, or even close range fight, it's because he made a bad mistake ...

That's exactly my point !!!!!!!! Holy cow, 2 sentences summed up 30 posts of mine !! geeze, I have a way with words huh ??? Thanks.

Yes and no ... what my wish is, and I strongly suspect that if the missile was more accurate, a guy would not continue to let an F15 target him, he would fly some sort of tactic to change the situation, he knows that there is a bug that will allow him to not get shot, I believe it is a bug and it's being exploited as a tactic.

Well, lemme restate my problem just so you guys no where I stand in my point. The "unsupported flaw" as I see it: If a guy has a missile warning, or better yet sees several missiles coming at him .. and knows that he can continue to do what he is doing with no fear of being hit, there is proof that does not need supported that there is a bug. The missiles need to be atleast accurate enough to scare someone when one is inbound. I don't have any proof that in the real world pilot's are afraid of missiles, but I suspect that any missile coming from a relatively short range is a dangerous threat and multiples would put them on the defensive. I can't talk numbers or radars with you guys ... but how can you argue this ? This has to be proof that the missiles are buggy ! Noone should have that much confidence that they won't be hit unless there is a flaw in the game that they know about (e.g. notching or flying low) this type of thing is what ruins the F-15, it takes away every strength it has, forces you to get into the knife fight for the kill .. you shouldn't have to do this .. and I don't believe for a minute that this is how it really works. I know i'm repeating myself ... I just want to refocus myself and you all on what my original post and problem is about. Missiles should be scary !

Look, I'm not dismissing anyone's knowledge, i've said it before, i'm no expert either ... I'm just pointing out some very rediculous flaws (as I see it). The last thing I want to do is get everyone mad at eachother. I've posted some good common sense point of views that I won't drop just because someone says "you are wrong". I said before, I wish to pass this along to the developers, I have no desire to convince GG or anyone else that i'm right, and I don't feel at all that I am wrong to disagree. I think if cooler heads will prevail, this could turn into a very constructive thread .. why not all interested throw up links and articles and maybe as a group find out how realistic or unrealistic the missiles are. And if noone is interested in that .. then I go back to .. this is my feedback to ED, not to the testers.

Look, I'm not dismissing anyone's knowledge, i've said it before, i'm no expert either ... I'm just pointing out some very rediculous flaws (as I see it). The last thing I want to do is get everyone mad at eachother. I've posted some good common sense point of views that I won't drop just because someone says "you are wrong". I said before, I wish to pass this along to the developers, I have no desire to convince GG or anyone else that i'm right, and I don't feel at all that I am wrong to disagree. I think if cooler heads will prevail, this could turn into a very constructive thread .. why not all interested throw up links and articles and maybe as a group find out how realistic or unrealistic the missiles are. And if noone is interested in that .. then I go back to .. this is my feedback to ED, not to the testers.

Good idea, who am I to voice my opinion and disagree with testers .. shame on me, I'm being a trouble maker.

You might consider adjust your attitude toward the public, a lot of us know more than you think to .. truth is, we all have read and learned our info about our favorite subject here, and i have heard nothing here that convinces me that anyone here including testers know any more about it than I do. I don't claim to be an expert, but I haven't seen any expertise on this thread yet either.

You guys are kinda getting away from my original post. Believe me, I am not bashing anyone for anything .. my post was about my concern of slammers and Aim 7's fired at non maneuvering targets and being beat by a very weak notch at WVR or just beyond. In my particular scenerio, there were no hills, no nothing, 4 missed shots in good parameters that were beaten by a fluke of the game .. that is my post and my beef .. I just want to throw out my opinion to the developers that it should be very difficult to spoof a missile shot in good parameters, just flying low without maneuvering needs to be fixed, it will up the skill level of everyone in the game. It would also effectively end unrealistic engagements of the 25T and 15, or similar things. In my mind, the 25T is out there to move mud and get away with it. In other words, fly low level routes get in, get out undetected. That, to me is how this aircraft would be employed. Simply getting rid of the fly low and never get shot bug would force people to fly their 25 or A10 with tactics more appropriate for that airframe. My tactic as the F15 driver is to fly high and shoot people from a safe distance, your tactic as a 25T driver is to bomb stuff and get away unseen. Once again .. this isn't a jab at anyone in any way. .. as a purchaser of the game, i'm voicing my opinion and displeasure with the ineffectiveness of my favorite airplane and it's weapons. I thoroughly stand by my thought the the F15 should be able to kill a 25 that is flying over flat terrain and not maneuvering without getting killed itself. If any airplane is cocky enough to fly inside of weapons parameters for another airplane, he should be in trouble .. that is my wish and suggestion for the developers, I am not trying to convince testers that this is right, frankly I don't care what the testers think because they are not the developers and don't appear to know any more about the real thing than I do. (ok, that was a slight "poke", but anyway, i'm as qualified here as anybody else to talk about "realism" short of someone who really is/was a fighter pilot) Oh and the reason that I want to see the A10 video is because I strongly suspect that this wasn't an all out battle, I'm bettin that they were flying an extended trail excercize for the benefit of the A10 driver and his training. I would think that an f-16 could get away from the A10 without trying too hard ... the 16 is slightly faster ! anyway .. different subject all together.

Where can I look at that video ?

Well, as I stated before, I can't quote facts because I don't have any .. common sense .. should a good A10 pilot come out on top of a couple so - so Mig 29 pilot's ? I'm thinking not .. if a guy can hit the pickle button in the 29 he should have an advantage over the A10 ?

"So, learn to fight in a way that works in the game, and not in a way that you -think- it should work." I disagree ! lol I'll shut up now

Keep in mind here, I am aware that it's not real and that certain tactics can be made from the flukes of the game. But, I think it's good to throw out discussions like this to the developers forum .. I don't think the answer is to learn every fluke of the game and use it to your advantage, I think it's to hold out hope that the flukes go away via patches and realism begins to surface.

LOL we are coming full circle, the reason I dont' fly up behind him is because I wasn't looking for a dogfight or a visual fight ... I should be able to kill him without flying at his elbow.

Ya, the reason I brought the post up in the 1st place was frustration over my situation the other night. I'm flying at a 25T over flat terrain, he's nothching me, very lazily but I have something better than 90 aspect and he's locked, so I throw a total of four missiles at him, he just keeps nothching not reacting, they miss, he pulls his nose around and bang, i'm dead. Not knocking the pilot at all .. .knocking the sim .. that should not have happened. A couple if not all of those missiles shouldve hit, or at least forced a defensive maneuver. In nutshell, my nose is pointing at you , yours isn't pointing at me, I'm better than 10 nm with missiles in the air .. should've been definately my advantage in that scenario.

Ya, the reason I brought the post up in the 1st place was frustration over my situation the other night. I'm flying at a 25T over flat terrain, he's nothching me, very lazily but I have something better than 90 aspect and he's locked, so I throw a total of four missiles at him, he just keeps nothching not reacting, they miss, he pulls his nose around and bang, i'm dead. Not knocking the pilot at all .. .knocking the sim .. that should not have happened. A couple if not all of those missiles shouldve hit, or at least forced a defensive maneuver.

Cant' argue with much of that except the "solution". I think the solution is that if a person is in good weapons parameters for any given missile, and is not doing his best to leave those parameters, he stands a better than not chance of getting blown out of the sky. I agree that none of us should argue about missile ranges because youre right, we don't know the answer. But if you have me locked up within the games prime parameters for the slammer and I don't attempt to fly outside of the missiles kill zone, I should blow up. I guess in other words, I feel like they should make it a little more difficult to spoof the missile. It's just too easy in my opinion. If a slammer goes active and has a descent aspect on you , you better give it all you got, a simple notch should not work. I think the notch is just to break the lock, you still have to do something following the notch or it'll pick you back up. I could be totally wrong .. this would be a good topic for real guys from either side .. wouldn't that be a fascinating conversation... funny thing is those guys all tend to dodge these conversations ! lol .. they must be smarter than us !

I will have to argue this point. The F15's main purpose in life is to shoot down aircraft from a distance that keeps it from getting shot down itself, it's a flying SAM site. It can turn and burn with the rest, but I still stand by my theory that it's meant to shoot down guys before they know what hit them, from 20 or more nm away. The only exception to this rule is when the ROE's state that they must visually identify before engaging .. and it's my understanding that this is a very last resort, positive ID is usually accomplished by the AWACS. While i'm not an expert on any of this, and these are my own opinions, I choose to believe that if a slammer is coming at you from BVR distances, you have to give it a good defense if not a great defense especially once it is active. I also believe that it is common to fire from 20 plus nm. I'm not trying to be hard headed, but if what I read on this forum by some is true, seriously .. why would the F4 or the F16 not be our air superiority fighter ? There has to be some reason why the 15 is our choice ? Surely not it's dogfighting capability. Don't take this as a challenge for an argument on the whole thing .. it's just a very interesting topic that I've followed for a long time and from everything i've learned, read, and heard, an amraam coming at you is very bad news and has to be taken seriously or it will hit you. In the game, firing an amraam doesn't even put people on the defensive, they've learned that in the game they can perform unrealistic tricks to beat the missile. One of my favorites that I see is to fly low and go very slow so the missile doesn't see you .. i'd love to here a real fighter pilot's take on this one ... I have a feeling he'd find it funny.

That's a fair enough statement, I don't have the expertise to argue missile parameters. I just definately want to voice my opinion to the developers that I would like to see the eagle strong at BVR, which is the only reason there ever was an eagle. If a 20 nm kill was very hard to do with todays missiles, we wouldn't need an F15, we could still be flying the P51 ! lol

I don't have any evidence .. common sense though. If missiles were that easy to dodge, no country would have any losses to date or kills for that matter, it would still come down to guns.

I'm not knocking anything anyone's doing online ... I'm just saying that an F-15 with a solid lock, inside of 10 nm ... shouldn't be a contest at all. An F15 doesn't need tactics in that situation .. the other guy does. I have no desire to see the F-15 so great that noone survives an encounter with it.. but they gotta do something. If someone strays into the weapons parameters of an F-15 and isn't running, he should be dead. I believe it's totally unrealistic to dodge 3 or 4 missiles shot at good parameters and still get a shot off yourself for the kill in any airplane. Weapons on both sides are so weak that it clearly makes a game out of this instead of a simulator. Don't take me the wrong way, I'm not trying to dog the game or the developers, I just want to strongly argue for better missiles all around. I think anyone with a quality shot coming at them should be forced to fly their best missile defense or blow up .. no more slight jinking or notching without maneuvering .. anyway .. that's my pitch.