StressLess

Then you don't understand how polling works!! It's a small sampling of a larger population to determine overall trends. How big do you think polling samples are usually? It's common for a country as large as the US (370 million or so people) to have polls that only sample a thousand or so, even on major issues! :noexpression: So while polling on a message board is not strictly scientific, it still does adequately reflect it's larger population for this discussion. These results are significantly outside the margin of error as well, despite not being scientific, and as such are still useful in determining the overall trend: The customers say NO to DCS being a subscription service! :thumbdown:

I wish these people would quit trying to present schemes to get all the modules for (almost) free, modules that a lot of us have paid good money for, as something that's altruistic! Shame on you! Pay your money like the rest of us have and you can fly ANY module you want, whenever you want! As explained by Nick in that video posted earlier in this thread, we already have a good thing going, and we are getting better and higher quality modules than could be produced otherwise for such a small niche market, so quit trying to break what is working (as imperfect as it is)!!

And as the hooded man is speaking, in his hand is a small black spheroid with the number "8" emblazoned on it's side that he shakes and then raises to his face and continues: "... revealed by the Magic 8-Ball, which says 'Follow the licensing!'" Not exactly what we were expecting, was it!! BTW - I thought it was a 1000 pages, not 100!!

If there's a flaw in logic it's yours not mine as the situations are quite the opposite of each other! With the Migs you go from older aircraft licenses (Migs 15/19/21) to licenses on newer aircraft (Mig 29, etc), so availability of the newer licensing would understandably be limited, especially when accounting for generational issues on the newer fighters. With the Typhoon and Tornado, the newer and still being developed Typhoon was licensed, while the older Tornado was retired by the RAF in 2019 (and there are no real generational entanglements as there is with the Migs). So, the situation with Mig licensing (for newer aircraft) is not the same as for the Tornado (an older aircraft, where the newer aircraft was already licensed by the same organization)! I would personally prefer a redfor aircraft, but given the recent grant of the Typhoon license for sim development, it simply makes a lot of sense for the retired Tornado to be licensed out given it's the same company (who would turn down what's basically free money for a project being retired by the RAF?). I guess you've yet to learn the Magic 8-Ball ALWAYS speaks sooth :worthy:, and it says "Follow the licensing!".

It's the Tornado! The same company that licenses out the EF2000 also licences the Tornado, and we have yet to hear about the Tornado license that some lucky developer has likely snagged! And it fits ALL the clues as well... I'd love for it to be the SU-34 (or some other redfor), but the Magic 8-ball says "Dahhh, follow the licensing!"

This problem with sale pricing is simple, if you find a price you're willing to pay, pay it and buy the module - if you are willing to abide by the conditions it's offered under (such a EA). At that point you have access to the module for your use, and that's what you are buying - right here, right now access. Now if it goes down in price the next day, are you going to beat yourself (or ED) up over your inability to see into the future?? Take some personal responsibility, you didn't have to make that purchase right there and right then, you COULD have waited to see if the price was going to drop. But you did buy it and for the money spent you got access to the module immediately, and you MUST have thought at that point that the price was worth what you where getting... ED certainly isn't responsible for YOUR inability to foresee future events, and it's simply NOT FAIR to blame ED because you're stuck having hindsight instead of foresight (a problem that plagues the rest of the human race as well, welcome)! Simple fact is, when you bought it that was the going price, you thought the price was right, and you weren't coerced into spending the money, there was nothing forcing you to make that particular decision at that particular time... So suck it up and learn from the experience you just paid for with cold hard cash... Me personally, I like sales, they are great! Eventually the F-14 will go on sale at 50% off, but I bought it during this recent sale in April because it's an awesome module. For that extra cash I just spent, I get to fly that gold standard module as much as I want between the time I bought it and the time it goes on sale for 50%. Experience tells me that I got a GREAT deal... I also got the Supercarrier (pre-purchase) and F-18 (EA) bundle, also on sale, and I know that I would not have access to the Supercarrier module for a while AND that the target release dates would almost certainly slip (and they did), but when it gets here, I'll be able to (hopefully) land that big beautiful F-14 on it as often as I want before either module ever goes on sale again, rather for the same price or cheaper. Experience tells me that I got a GREAT deal... BTW- yeah, I only have hindsight too, and I almost got a hernia trying to see into the future on that F-14 50% off sale, but strain as I might I'm only human - some days it sucks to be me...

That's true for the standalone version. But from that link I posted in the previous message, you had to go to the store page for the particular module you were interested in on Steam (during the event, which is over now) and select to play for free from the store. At which point Steam would then download the module into you DCS World as a DLC and it would then be flyable for the duration. Once the sale starts back up on Steam, you'll still have to go to the store page for the module to purchase it though.

Free for all event - How to access modules If you're on Steam you may have missed the boat for the free play modules, but not the sale!

Once the module has been around for a while and some of the investment in it's development has been paid off, then you might see it on sale for a better price than what it is now. When that happens they'll pick up these customers that are more budget constrained at that point in the future. And part of the cost of waiting for the price to come down is they'll have to wait to get use of the module as well... But you're too focused on your personal involvement in the pricing to see the forest for the trees since as a potential buyer you're obviously distressed by your inability to afford the module right here, right now, and by having to wait for the price to come into a range you CAN afford, you're impatient - you need to think past that... But if the module is worth the $80 it costs to the person buying it, then they'll pay the price. Otherwise they'll have to wait until it comes down to what that person thinks it's worth. I think an Aston-Martin (in red) is only worth about US$15,000 to me, but you don't see me whining to Aston-Martin about the price do you? And I'm not going to pay US$198,995 for the DB11 (in red)... not today, not tomorrow, not in 100 years (duh, I'll be dead by then :lol:... also, currency devaluation and all that... but that's beside the point). Anyway, the point is that I'm not the only person in the world who thinks/feels this way, so there you go... those potential sales are lost (until several years have passed, that is). Question is... how many in total? ...

Are you kidding me??

I've not noticed a difference in the updating speeds I get between DCS and Steam, they're pretty much the same overall, though DCS is sometimes faster. I did a re-install onto a new computer a few months back and it took no longer for DCS than a similar install on Steam. However, DCS makes use of BitTorrent and if your ISP filters BitTorrent then the downloads from DCS would be fairly compromised. Luckily that doesn't seem to be a problem on my ISP, which is a 400mbps cable-modem connection BTW. FYI. PS- you can move modules from Steam to the Standalone version, but not the other way. So a great sale on the Standalone does you no good on Steam, but a great sale on Steam can be used by someone on Standalone...

Actually, by cutting the price now they would be cannibalizing future sales of the module at it's normal price. This is especially true given the age of the module, it's new enough that they likely haven't made back the cost of development yet, much less paying for ongoing development! LOL. That they did this anyways, though with a smaller cut in price, is a calculated risk on their part and is certainly a boon for those wanting to buy it now! So where they would be losing money is if they reduced the price further (vs. future sales that is). But JF-17 isn't like many of the modules from ED and other developers that are much older, where initial development fees have been recovered already (or mostly recovered) and the drop in price isn't cannibalizing future sales so harshly. Usually when you do see such steep sales on newer products (like 50% off) it's because of one of two things: 1. they need to generate a LOT of money fast or 2. the goodwill and social buzz created by the sale is deemed more valuable than the money lost thru the lower pricing (vs. normal pricing), today's buzz = tomorrow's sales, no buzz, no sales... When the product is older (think A-10 or KA-50), they've sold so many that every new sale pays for upkeep and improvements and they can afford steeper discounts (because the prorated profit margins are higher in comparison to newer modules). This is where they pay for the upkeep for the world in DCS, BTW, those profit margins! So when you do the math, it NEEDS to be for total sales of JF-17 over the life of the product, rather than a single month or so towards the beginning of the life of the product. You're making a bad assumption that anyone not buying it right now is a "lost sale", which is naive and untrue. And the math says that if we want a great JF-17 module, or have great modules of other aircraft in the future, that Deka made the right choice...

I don't know. The recent announcement of a 3rd party developing the Eurofighter could mean this mystery module might end up being the Tornado, as one of the major hurdles in developing any module is the licensing. Given that the same organization that granted the license so the Eurofighter module could be developed also owns the Tornado (if I recall correctly), it is quite possible that the Tornado license was picked up by ED for development around the same time. And there are a ton of Tornado pilots out there that can help with development, as well as a ton of technical information available publicly and through such a licensing agreement. If they were willing to license out the Eurofighter, you can bet they'd be fine with licensing the older Tornado as well. And the Tornado fits the clues that have been dropped and is a much requested aircraft. While I'd STILL prefer to see a pro level MIG-29 (or another red team module) over just about anything else, I think the Tornado would be a fine choice as well. I doubt it'll be any aircraft that is stealthy such as the F-117, F-22, F-35, etc. as this would require major changes to the DCS engine to account for the stealth properties, and personally I'd prefer they concentrate on getting the other stuff in the DCS world right first... But think of the possibilities! If ED were to use the base code from Heatblur's F-14 then development time could be (comparatively) VERY short for a Tornado, as they share similar functionality. There would even be a backseat AI ready from the start, and if they didn't turn it into spaghetti code in the process, we'd end up with another gold standard module for DCS. Just say'in...

Again, where are these subscribers going to be coming from? This economic model only works with a critical mass of subscribers providing sufficient cashflow to cover the cost. The subscription itself is NOT an actual product, people aren't going to join simply because a subscription exists! So we need to ask what tangible value does a subscription bring to DCS World's existing offerings that will attract new players to come spend money every month? And subscription service does not guarantee accountability! Look at the forums for ANY major subscription game and you will find copious amounts of postings about ancient bugs that are "shrugged off" by the developers, going all the way back to some of earliest online subscription services (anyone remember Meridian 59?). Heck, that's even true of non-game subscriptions where a service like Adobe's Creative Cloud comes to mind (a service that ONLY works because of a quasi-captive subscriber base as Adobe CC provides tools that allows their subscribers to make good money, while a gaming service generally wouldn't). There are tons of postings about bugs in Adobe CC that have been in product releases going back years! This idea of a subscription seems like a clever idea, but clever ≠ smart! Once you start looking beneath the hood you find that doing a subscription service creates other problems and isn't well suited for niche markets where the value added is questionable. It makes it hard to add the critical mass of subscribers needed to make it work. And an honest review of other subscription services shows the actual stated problem that going subscription is purported to resolve would, with a high degree of certainty, only be exacerbated by the switch. Now a more interesting (and smart) solution to cashflow for the developers would be to offer a significantly cheaper version of each of their modules that are locked to game mode, that can then be upgraded to full fidelity at any time. There is little that would need to be done to support this to the module manager as they would be distinct modules (so they can't be hacked to give full fidelity) and it would be a simple change to their store as each module would be independent and the full fidelity module would replace the gaming module entirely on upgrade (since you can always turn on game mode if so desired).

In trying to get a sufficient number of subscribers to this niche to make it work! And if there are that many people interested in paying money to play DCS World to support it as a subscription service, why don't we see them flocking to DCS as a free to play option as it is currently? There are zero (count them - 0) show-stopper problems in DCS World that would prevent any and all from having fun and enjoying themselves! So, where are they? You're trying to solve a problem by using a resource that doesn't look like it exists, namely a subscriber base of sufficient size to support a niche service. No, if you build it, they aren't necessarily going to come! If you REALLY think that throwing more money at it will solve the problem, then set up a Patreon account for ED and each of the developers and do monthly payments of whatever amounts you feel you could afford. There's NO reason whatsoever that ED needs to setup as a subscription service when you are OK with paying a monthly amount to them and can do so today thru Patreon or PayPal!! With a well thought out and executed campaign to get others to join you in donating to the cause, you could be proactive in solving the problem you perceive to exist without screwing the rest of us over!

Just a quick update. I managed to recover my original DCS Forums account from way back when and am moving off the newer jlummel account I've been participating under. I guess there's no way to merge the new account with the older one, so future postings will come from this StressLess account. I still haven't tested out VR vs. TrackIR yet as I'm still tuning the game and my computer as it sits in 2D and some more research in using VR. I also moved from the release of SteamVR (used in DCS) to the beta version and so far that's made an incredible difference in how the Odyssey+ operates in other VR games, so I'm hoping it'll make DCS better than it might have been as well. But there is some good advice in this thread and thanks to everyone who chimed in. Once I'm happy with which ever I choose I'll post a follow up on this thread. But for now I just wanted to point out the change in userid on the forms and this thread. Thanks! :thumbup: BTW- one or two more questions, should I test VR in the current release version of DCS, or go with the 2.5.6 open beta version? Is the beta stable enough that it wouldn't be a source of problems while trying to get handle on VR?

I'd like to see the F16 or the F18 added to this sim (and not as a F15 dressed in different textures).

It looks like most of the MFDs they showed were from a trainer and may not have been the real thing. I worked for the Training Aides Electronics Division of the USAF for a bit (many, many years ago) and we assembled several trainers that were mounted like and looked like the ones displayed (in terms of differences between the ones in the trainer and the ones in the cockpit). Of course with the quality of the video and the briefness of the shots it's hard to tell, but they definately reminded me of the APR-38 trainers we did for the F15 pilots (yes THAT long ago, - the first F16 pilots were just starting their training!). I think they were showing you a trainer and not the real McCoy though... That aside, it was a great video!! I's love to see more like that!