vicx

Red, Blue and Green Teams aren't going anywhere. Each of them have unique and defensive positions. AMD, Intel and Nvidia are actually making mutually beneficial specialisations to defend their shared turf against the "real threat" which is coming from mobile ecosystem vendors. Five years ago people were predicting the demise of AMD at the hands of Intel. There were big Intel VS AMD threads and a point I always made at the time was that Intel and AMD are actually on the same team (x86) and both of them would be fighting for their survival vs ARM. If you watch THAT video that SZ posted you might think it predicts the death of Nvidia BUT the truth is that what helps AMD ends up helping Nvidia too because they are a duopoly and there is a lot of commonality to their technology. Only companies not already in the market are affected by AMDs move. Bringing the price/perf point down using APIs helps Red and Green. I think Nvidia will follow AMD into smaller dies if/when it makes sense. Right now it is AMD that plays the early mover because they took a leadership role defining the closer-to-the-metal APIs, BUT Nvidia will do just fine being a leader in high performance computing and a follower in visual computing. If you are wondering about Nvidia's pursuit of HPC ... it makes them a much more attractive merger partner. AMD has leadership of visual computing APIs BUT Nvidia is making a much bigger play by focusing on deep learning and HPC. VR performance in DCS is a much harder subject to talk about than this other stuff :)

The idea of operating switches and MFD buttons from VR is interesting BUT I wonder if we are at stage where we might be best turning off as many peripheral services and optional extras in DCS as possible just to get the perf up. I wonder how bare bones we could run DCS just to have enough headroom for steady VR perf. The theory is that I'll be a LOT more perf contrained in DCS than you because my RIG is a lot weaker BUT I wonder how much of difference there will be in practice. I got my Vive arriving in a week. I'll try 90fps (fat chance); I think my 780 is much too limited so am approach I'm considering is to FORCE limit DCS to 45fps MAX. I'll be deliberately driving the Vive with a constant 45fps to force the re-projection mode constantly on instead of having it switch as the framerate in DCS fluctuates. The only wrinkle is not being sure if I can actually limit the DCS framerate in VR mode. I'm not sure what config settings work in VR and what is ignored.

Only someone with an intimate knowledge of the DCS engine can say for sure. But with only a limited knowledge of DCS rendering I can see how this "could" be true in some circumstances. DCS uses instancing (lots of objects) and other techniques in their DX11 engine to maintain acceptable perf on a fairly wide range of hardware. It could be (I do not claim to know for sure) that their techniques were chosen and tuned with a target of 30fps-60fps in mind. This makes sense because before VR arrived the expectation was that a new DCS engine should drive a triplescreen or a 4K screen with as many objects on screen as possible, with as much detail and as much visual fidelity as possible; with 60fps desired and 30fps as acceptable. What people wanted most was high resolution with a big draw distance (you get a LOT of objects with the draw distance). The main point is that ED wasn't optimising for a constant 90fps. To be fair AMD and Nvidia hardware and drivers weren't optimised for 90fps either. The goal in hardware and software for years and years has been maximum visual quality at 60fps using every trick in the book. Now with VR we want a constant 90fps. Even if we want to trade away long draw distances and have fewer objects to get 90fps it isn't as easy as you think. The optimisation at every level of software and hardware is to deliver 60fps ... for all hardware and software it is going to take a while to unravel existing optimisations and create parallel optimisations for VR rendering purposes. With this in mind we can do our testing ... we may see counter-intuitive results. I won't be surprised if we do.

This might be a partially valid claim but I would love some evidence. Do you have graphs and video of VR perf in other applications and games that show this to be the case? Do you have evidence in games where ATW is being activated to show that this is the case. Sure in an ideal world GPU and CPU would be fully utilised but with present GPU and CPU architectures I think this VERY HARD to do with VR. When ATW is activated, frames are discarded which reduces GPU load and in engines where framerate and simulation rate are linked (MOST GAMES and APPS) then CPU load should also drop. Blame current hardware/software architectures if you do not like this. --- Other point that that ED has some work to do is an overstatement and understatement. We can't say that ED is doing anything wrong with VR DCS until we can point to a competitive simulation software that is doing VR better. Currently there is no other software in it's class doing better. Saying ED has work to do it is like saying "we need technical progress". Of course this statement is ALWAYS true and one wonders how often it needs to be repeated. We can also say that Nvidia and AMD have a lot of work to do because we need technical progress for GPUs too. 980TI was just a stop gap measure when it comes to VR compatible GPUs using current GPU architectures. The hardware architecture of a 980TI is not ideal and future architectures will show this. Further to this, currently deployed and mature APIs (DX11) are not ideal for VR. Brand new APIs (DX12) are cutting edge and supporting them is very expensive and will take a long time for ED. --- So for those who are not good at waiting, what can be done while waiting for technical progress to arrive? Maybe satisfy your curiosity and perhaps identify small gains through trial and error. I did a lot of testing last year to try and improve perf in NTTR/Vegas by culling objects out of the map and modifying (like a caveman with a laptop) some shader code. I wasn't worried about how ugly or silly things looked - I was only looking for more perf. Anyone curious can do the same. How to record and share testing is difficult. Last year screenshots and video taken in VR in DK2 did not show debug info. I have noticed that SteamVR has better tools for this kind of thing. When I get my Vive (MAY :noexpression:) I will likely do some testing with it.

Interesting. I'd love to confirm this but my DK2 will be packed away until the weekend. Is this happening because DCS is not being launched via Oculus Home? If so that is a terrible thing for apps that just want to use the SDK.

Maybe a brute force approach can help. Forums are predicting that the big perf gains in the new Nvidia cards will mostly come from higher core clock speeds. Maybe 1400-1500 Mhz. === On subject of ATW. In use I find ATW sufficient but not as immersive as remaining constantly over 90fps. Flying at 45fps with ATW you do not become sick; but it is better when EVERYTHING runs at 90fps. There is a reason that 90fps is targeted by HMD makers, it feels much better. What I do think is that the existence of ATW (and other reprojection techniques) creates a tier of performance between 45 and 90 which a lot of people might settle for. Right now there are people who play DCS on a potato and they are happy. It follows that some players will put a potato on each eye and be happy.

A great summary, Skatezilla. I only made my post as I did to make players aware and have reasonable expectations before they rush out and buy a 980TI to make VR work perfectly in DCS. If only it was so easy. I have cautious long term optimism for VR SLI. I think VR SLI is only being used in a few of Valve's LAB demos for Vive at this time. I don't actually think it is used anywhere else right now. Anyone using it in their game would certainly tell the world.

I do not disagree with hansangb. But to keep things in perspective. Questions still remain over the VR performance of a 980TI in DCS. Even players with the best card you can buy (980TI) still find scenarios in DCS that are a problem. It could be that for a foreseeable future the optimal performanceis out of the reach of currently available hardware. Certain parts of the map, certain modules and heavy AI load OR lots of objects will bring any system below comfortable VR performance levels. Krupi, in your case and others like you (ME:cause I have a 780 too). When you get the Rift put all settings to LOWEST and disable all recordings and/or exports and see how well your 780 performs in VR doing exactly the flying that you want to do. This becomes the base level for you. Then ask other people who do similar type of flying (same modules, same map regions, same missions) how their 980TI performs in VR. If players with a 980TI have frequent frame drops below 45 then you know that upgrading to a 980TI (at this time) will not buy you optimal performance (perhaps it is better to wait before buying new hardware). BUT if players with a 980TI have a a very good or optimal experience then you know that upgrading is an idea with a lot of merit.

I think RUS38 makes a reasonable point. Some people very much enjoy their perfectly dialled in experience on a monitor; these are the people who need to know that VR is NOT going to be as reliable as non-VR for quite some time. I've tried not to post too many warnings about tempering ones expectations when it comes to VR performance in DCS. Still I'd say every second post of mine about VR has been about the great difficulty of delivering VR in DCS. Of course I'm not just a skeptic, I'm also a true believer. I ordered a Vive when the store opened and I'm really looking forward to flying in VR. BUT I didn't order a HMD just to play DCS so I'll be fine if takes a while for DCS VR to get dialled in. If you don't want to beta test DCS VR ... it might make sense to wait a little while.

I edited my previous post to more obvious. You can have your GPU at only 50% load because a single frame is taking TOO long to render (more than 10ms) and that frame is being discarded and this causes the rendering engine to fallback and render only every second frame so you get 45fps. If your GPU can't render frames in 20ms then you will discard even MORE frames. Thus your card will not load up because lots of frames are being discarded. This is logical. If you want to load up your card you HAVE to render each frame within the budgeted time.

Rendering for VR is a race against time. You only have to miss the timing window by a single millisecond to completely halve your framerate. Even with ATW you will experience the side effects of that halving. At least with ATW you will not be made sick by a low framerate. The same is true for Valves reprojection. Compared to VR, rendering to a normal screen is lot easier because it is not latency dependent. It is actually quite common for a graphics driver to queue up several frames (at the cost of latency) to dramatically improve framerates. You dont normally notice this high latency in flightsims BUT in VR you absolutely do which is why the graphics driver can't use this technique to queue frames. This is why a GTX980TI can get 200fps (at high latency on a monitor) but can't consistently beat the 10ms timing window to keep the framerate from dropping below 45fps under high visual loads in VR. When it comes to VR rendering, the rendering challenge very different; hitting the timing window every single frame is now the most important thing. I do think that people should be disabling LUA exports, track recording and other DCS features that could affect VR performance. VR is demanding ... don't carry extra CPU/GPU load. OK I edit this post to be more EXACT because people are still posting about perf. I said don't carry extra CPU/GPU load BUT that was the wrong term to use. More accurate to say - avoid LATENCY. You can have your GPU at only 50% load because the scene is taking TOO long to render one frame and that frame is being discarded and your are only running at 45fps or lower. Your card will not load up because lots of frames are being discarded. This is logical. If your GPU cannot render EVERY frame in 10ms there are not many things you can do. You could try to overclock the core clock of GPU. Increase of 10% might save you 1ms which could make a difference if your very lucky. OR you can try to reduce scene complexity that adds to the total draw time.

I enjoy seeing the simulation of complex systems. Coming to DCS I had high expectations for the combat but after a few years I find the combat is not nearly as interesting as exploring the mechanical, electrical and aerodynamic modelling. I get to the point that my favourite module is Mi-8 because it begins to elaborate these areas better than any other module. Now I would like to have persistent airframes that carry fatigue and damage and require maintenance and repair. To know the machine very well and fly and maintain would be great. A simulation for pilot and mechanic would be my ideal.

The image you got a problem with is by the same guy :) Doc-OK. --- The Vive is using the same technique as the Rift for increased binocular FOV. Doc-OK: "the Vive DK1/Pre’s view frusta are skewed outwards, sacrificing stereo overlap for increased binocular FoV". So I think it is 'likely' that the Vive has a high binocular FOV than the Rift. But this means that the Rift 'likely' has more pixels per degree to work with. That is definite win for the Rift - Just be happy.

KLR, great to hear your first impressions (while we wait for our own consumer HMDs and DCS) Interesting to read your comparison to the GearVR. If it is comparable to the GearVR in center of the eye resolution then I think it will be great in DCS. The immersion you will love. Wait till you see another aircraft in close formation in DCS. It is so much easier to judge distance in VR and it is a bit of a rush to fly close to another jet when it feels like is really there. Elo001, I think ATW and engine tweaks in DCS might get us close enough. Definitely crossing fingers. I just got Elite Dangerous working with DK2 and OC 1.3 driver. I don't know if ATW is is being used for the DK2 but Frontier have made VR improvements that are noticeable in the DK2. Krupi, I didn't buy the CV1 but I think you have made a really great choice. I actually think the Rift will be the best HMD for DCS but I decided to get a Vive for my own reasons. I'll still enjoy the Vive in DCS and I won't get upset if people tell me their CV1 has more clarity (I think the CV1 will likely see the dials better in DCS and I'm fine with that). I think it is OK to differentiate between the different HMDs, I think they will be qualitatively different and I personally won't have any problems talking about those differences. Someone insulting your choice of HMD shouldn't matter. Just be confident in your choices.

Just tried the DK2 with Oculus 1.3 drivers. IMO the DK2 isn't running right. It is subtle but the timing is just slightly off. If I was new to VR I probably wouldn't notice it but I have clocked a lot of hours in the DK2 and I am noticing it. VR desktop unlocks in a few hours so I'll buy it and I'l set a background with a grid. It is grids that really show up the problems.

Quanten I had some performance problems for a few weeks and it turned out that my sealed all-in-one Intel water cooler had dried out. A lot of the water had evaporated out of the system and my CPU was throttling because it was running at 90 degrees BUT only under load. I downloaded HWMonitor so I could monitor my temps and that is how I found the problem. You can refill the "Intel sealed" CPU water cooling systems but I only found that out after replacing it with a Corsair H80. Good luck hunting down the gremlins.

DS, display sounds and looks great but the star of the show is whatever box is doing the driving. Must be a hell of a PC. Still to bring this back to VR ... anyone tried using DK2 with new Oculus driver? How does the ATW work with DK2?

Wow you got one already ... or just the box :) I was disappointed to fall into May deliveries but I need time to prepare a room for the Vive and I've not made much progress. I think you'll see what can be done pretty quickly with the Vive. Without any modding you will be able to move around just by fixing the camera, moving and then re-fixing the camera. It used to be that you could only use the '5' on the numeric keypad for re-fixing the VR camera but hopefully that can be changed so you can bind it to a joystick or button on a Vive wand. Otherwise you'll have to carry around a keyboard to use that method. Because of the keyboard problem, the other approach I tried was using Combined Arms to jump in and out of units to use their view-port. I made an invisible cube model without a collision shell and I placed him places I where wanted to walk around. What wasn't working for me when I did that room-scale testing was moving a soldier model around with WASD and using that view. A MOD I had made a few months earlier to make soldier models playable was no longer working in 1.5 and 2.0. And putting a camera on the Chinook was done with some editing of the lua entry for the Chinook. Manually setting the Chase Cam to be at standing eye level relative to the floor of the helicopter. It worked well. Afterwards I was thinking I just need to build an entire helicopter shell out of plywood so I can walk though it in VR.

This is a more accurate set of images via BrandonJLA using a fairly simple and reliable technique. It just confirms my own ideas that the HMDs are specialised for certain activities. Rift will have the better resolution in the center of the eye and Vive will have the larger FOV. The Rift probably has the best specialisation for DCS (right now) but I like that the Vive has a larger FOV because it help for VR immersion in general. I pre-ordered a Vive on Day 1 to use for general VR. Smirkza, keep using the DK2 until the performance of VR in DCS is more stable.

Nice video S3NTRY11. A much more more thorough exploration of the hardware and demos compared to what you normally see. It would be great to see this kind of video for the Rift. Oculus and their NDA is why we aren't seeing any interesting CV1 videos at the moment.

I wonder if that focus set at fairly close distance is part of what makes the cockpit view in DCS look so awesome in the DK2. Perhaps the downside is some eye strain looking at things far away. In general there is actually significant compromise in using a fixed focus system in VR (as all current systems do). Ideally you would do eye tracking. This video provides some insight ... if you watch it.

Dude ... Everyone thinks they got a pimp rig until they try playing DCS in VR. Does anyone with a DK2 and a pimp rig disagree with that statement? :) --- In all SRSNS maybe it isn't the rig ... VR will require a lot of optimisation and it is likely that ED have a long way to go with that task.

According to a post on the r/SteamVR Valve has added SLI VR support in an update to their test app. As far as I know this is the very first app to actually support VR SLI of any kind. Anyone with a SLI rig wanna try the updated test? You need to run with --multigpu Links - Reddit thread | Test Screenshots

I'm glad there is a robust discussion over performance here. I have to say that I agree a lot with the points made by DerekSpeare. Derek has a DK2 and he knows what good performance vs bad performance looks like. Even though he has a pimp rig he has still experienced poor VR performance in DCS. That is realistically where we are with VR in DCS right now. --- I also agree with S3NTRY11. I just can't play DCS for anything more than a minute in my DK2 when the framerate falls below 75/150. It doesn't make me sick but it does start to hurt my eyes and make them tired. I experience it as irritation that grows. --- Enduro maybe you are immune and I would say congratulations. I think you are fairly rare when it comes to your immunity to low frames and/or visual artifacts from the current implementation of timewarp in DCS 1.5/2.0. I do ASSUME you are playing DCS 2.0 with Rift SDK 0.8.0.0. You could still be playing DCS 1.2.8 with Rift SDK 0.5.0.0 in which case we are comparing oranges to lemons. --- Frusheen, agree with you about asynchronous timewarp but I still expect to see glowing reviews of async timewarp on Rift day zero. Personally I will want to see it with my own eyes or see reviews from "skeptical" reviewers who I can trust. People trying something in VR for the first time are generally unreliable reviewers until they can report things without the VR glow. I was so guilty of this -> Combined Arms in VR is freaking awesome. Sorry to anyone who actually believed that CA in VR represented any pinnacle of achievement in immersive VR. :music_whistling: --- Rocky49 don't be so sure about how ready your hardware is. You need to keep in mind is that the SteamVR test uses either the Source2 engine or Unity engine with a custom SteamVR renderer. The results are only useful as an indication of the performance you can expect from SteamVR launch titles or games from teams that have worked closely with Valve. --- Fab is correct on how demanding VR is. It is not just FPS ... low latency requirement is the real killer but it is good that the SteamVR test does measure this. If you want to learn some stuff watch this video on VR rendering. For me the last half of the video was the most interesting. --- hannibal I have the same feels. Waiting is hard but the benefits of the new silicon will be undeniable. VR performance per dollar spent will radically improve. Either wait to save money or wait to get twice the perf on the high end. A double perf jump in a single generation doesn't happen very often. Although I don't think that this will translate into performance in DCS ... maybe with DCS CPU limit is also significant. --- 14th_JAR I am really glad you are getting a Rift. Look forward to your posts.

A showroom could be quite cool ... but if you have Combined Arms then it is possible to make a viewing rig for use in missions by making a custom Combined Arms unit with the DCS EDM tools (object in 3dmax exported as EDM). The rig can have several viewpoints built-in and you position the rig entity in the mission editor (put it next to something you want to look at). Then you can select the viewing rig during the mission and change viewpoints with the same key you would use change turrets if you were in a tank. There are still wrinkles in the experience because CA in DCS is not 100% VR friendly yet. But I will persist doing stuff in this area because the level of detail put into the DCS 3d models makes this very worthwhile. In VR they look amazing from every angle.