Twwhitey

Found it interesting that the current SteamVR Beta v1.7.10 change description explicitly mentions DCS World. Granted it seems to imply a fix to a previous fix (that apparently made DCS worse) however I’d be curious if the subsequent fix actually improves the experience with motion smoothing on for DCS. I found the SteamVRs implementation of motion smoothing slightly worse than ASW (Oculus’s implementation)... not by much but noteworthy. An improvement on the Steam side would be great IMO. Would be curious if any Index users out there give it a try (either in Beta or if it eventually gets rolled into stable) and notice improvements. In my experience motion smoothing would introduce a fair amount of warping artifacts (canopy bow on the FA-18, missiles tips on the wing tips warping during aggressive maneuvers or my least favorite seeing 2 - double vision - enemy planes when at a fast moving merge in a dogfight). ASW does it too just a bit less than Steams version. Maybe the new changes improve that? Disclaimer - I sent my Index kit back to Valve for a refund due to multiple RMA issues but I’m hoping quality control improves to the point I’d consider re-ordering again in the future. https://steamcommunity.com/games/250820/announcements/detail/1599262707997233111 Compositor Improved throttling logic when motion smoothing is enabled. Previously, throttling and prediction were locked together when motion smoothing is enabled. Last week throttling was temporarily disabled for cpu bound applications to help with No Man’s Sky, but made some other experiences worse (e.g. DCS World). This update allows throttling to back off of the prediction level based on the current average gpu performance. A typical example is when an app can render at half-rate (i.e. each rendered frame takes more than a single frame to finish, but less than two), but spends an extra frame on the cpu performing the draw calls, etc. This makes each of those frames a total of three frame latent, but can still deliver a new frame every other vsync interval. Note: This only applies to Lighthouse based hmds (e.g. Vive, Index) since most other headsets (e.g. Rift, WMR) use their own compositor and associated logic for throttling and prediction.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-08-20-nvidia-gamescom-driver-adds-ultra-low-latency-mode-integer-scaling-and-other-fan-requested-features https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/gamescom-2019-game-ready-driver/?cjevent=86d99325c35b11e9819f00660a1c0e0f I suppose it’s a bit of a pipe dream to hope any of these new driver features would make a positive performance impact to DCS...

Interestingly enough I got the invite to join the private firmware beta as well last night. I’ll likely give it a go today when I get a chance. Few folks on Reddit are reporting improvement after installing so that’s something I suppose

+1 that's how I initiated my contact. Note it's taken NO LESS than just over 2 days for them to respond to me each response iteration so it's in your best interest to 1. Clearly state your issue and just as importantly what, if anything, you've done to test/resolve, etc the issue on your part. Different games, resolutions, SS, frequencies, GPU driver versions, USB/display ports. 2. include a system report generated from SteamVR and attach it to the support request. If you don't do the above you'll likely get a very canned response asking you to do very basic things (have you tried updating your GPU drivers? have you tried different ports? have you rebooted your computer?:doh:) at which point you will have to wait ANOTHER 2 days for a another response after doing what they said. You want your initial communication to be pretty comprehensive so you can cut to the chase and proceed with an RMA or pull the ripcord and send it back.

Indeed thank you for the heads up that there actually is some (urgent?) effort to resolve this issue. After waiting 2 days for a response from Valve Support on the issue (keeping in mind this is my 2nd faulty Index headset) I received the exact same cookie cutter response everyone else did... (in retrospect I'm not sure why I honestly expected anything different). Witnessing 1st hand what I believe these displays are capable of (granted my 1st had a few dead pixels originally) I don't buy that a) "some amount of this behavior will be present" (my original one did not at all, it was glorious minus a few pixels) b) "it should improve as the headset warms up during play sessions" (my original one looked great the instant it was powered up) I find their canned statement "Our engineers are currently looking at software adjustments that should improve this behavior across the board." to not instill a great amount of confidence. Should improve? I'd prefer "will definitely resolve" :doh: Seeing that in my response I'm now advocating they send me a THIRD headset I actually asked the support guy (in semi-sortof joking but not really joking way) if there was a way they could open the box and test it before sending it to me... :megalol: testing.. novel idea I know. Anyhow you're at the forefront of this issue and directly applying it to DCS so thank you for the effort and would welcome updates on your beta experiences going forward while I ponder what do with the $1000 box on my floor.

For those who have orders placed awaiting for fulfillment I got a notification that #2164 (my order!) shipped today... they're definitely pumping out the shipments at this point.

Well my Index saga much like yours remains in-progress and I apparently did not win the Device lottery. Replacement (RMA’d due to a cluster of dead pixels) headset arrived yesterday and while there are no dead pixels I’m seeing first hand the vertical line issue (now deemed “pixel inversion” I see?). So I’m not sure they’re physically checking headsets prior to sending out...at least not yet. Having had a headset w/o the issue (and dead pixels notwithstanding) and now having one that does I would offer the strong opinion that visual quality is definitely compromised by the issue and worth keeping your support/return/replacement/refund options active. I won’t accept that it’s “Normal & expected” for a $1000 kit. It sounds as though there’s some hope it’s resolvable - granted it’s based on the cryptic statement in those support messages - so I’m going to hold on to mine for the remaining 2 weeks of my 30 day return window... hopefully there’s a bit more info made public soon. Total bummer as it really is a pleasure to put it on after playing with the Rift S for the past week. Not bashing the Rift at all but the comfort and adjustability of the Index (for my IPD) is just a real step up...Argh....

Nothing else to say other than this is great work... I've been forced to toggle labels on/off all the time because the default ones are huge, blocky and obtrusive (even when set to Dot Only).. these are perfect just barely noticeable but super helpful in VR... and absolutely love how the fade to nothing in close. Great stuff thanks for posting!

That is a bummer for sure considering your present situation, coupled with the fact the replacement didn’t completely resolve your issue. Speaking of disappointing (but not terribly surprising) support/returns Valve has instructed me to send back the defective Base Station and Index Headset PRIOR to them sending me replacements. Granted they did provide a pre-paid shipping label however I suspect I’ll be without an Index for at least a week+... I’m REALLY hoping the 2 devices come back issue free..not sure I can stomach much more back & forth w Valve Support Hope you feel better!

Yeah it’s tough to tell whether it’s 3 or 5 dead pixels (def more than one and it’s not uniformly shaped) but it’s just slightly off center in the middle of the eyepiece...ever present every where you look... if it was on the fringes of the display I *might* be able to deal with if Valve pushed back but where it is it’s definitely a bit of a deal breaker. Do you know if your return window resets to 30 days with the new headset arrival OR are we still subject to only the original delivery date?

Hey Alec - I just noticed in your DCS settings that you are not enabling any MSAA, is that right? Do you find a considerable amount of shimmering in DCS - especially on the ground at large airfields? (For me w/o MSAA every runway or taxi way lines shimmers like crazy). Have you found another way to suppress that effect or do you just deal w it? I updated my mobo bios today (I was 2 versions behind), started overclocking my 2080ti and started managing DCS CPU affinity and despite it all I still can’t get rid of the ghosting with any SS above 100% when MSAA is enabled (unless I drastically drop DCS visual settings). My only options remain either: 1. MSAA + motion smoothing (which I can crank up the detail & SS but have to deal with motion smoothing artifacts) OR 2. MSAA off, lower detail/SS, motion smoothing off (which removes artifacts) but introduces a lot of shimmering.

Wow that is awesome. I did get a response last night from Valve in reference to the support ticket where I reported my noisy Basestation and dead pixels on the headset . While it appears they are prepared to send a replacement Basestation (which would be great) they completely ignored the 2nd issue I reported...so I’ve reiterated... we’ll see. Also noticed this AM they pushed out SteamVR 1.6.10 plus seemingly an update for the headset... it appears the “USB device not recognized” (requiring an unplug/re-plug of the headset) may no longer be an issue... a few more reboots required to confirm after work today...if so that’s one annoyance eliminated!

Yeah this is largely the issue I’ve been working on since my Index arrived in so much that the issue is the legacy DCS application core isnt really optimized for new hardware and VR per se. My personal experience (and I’m new to this as well) netted out to two main outcomes/directions for me: 1. If i want to minimize shimmering and increase SS or pixel density (for better cockpit gauge clarity and visual quality overall) you need to enable MSAA in-game which has a pretty dramatic negative effect on perf... so you’ll likely need to enable motion smoothing - which makes for a great experience and smooth frame rates at higher detail EXCEPT IT introduces some artifacts (fast moving stuff may warp, cockpit frames wiggles, wingtips blur/warp when aggressively maneuving, etc.).. 2. If i turn off motion smoothing to eliminate those artifacts i need to very carefully manage settings (SS, PD, texture settings) to keep frame rates in the acceptable range especially if you still want to keep MSAA on (to combat shimmering, jagged lines, etc.). I get the blurring/studder you mention when I push SS up over 100% AND try to keep MSAA enabled... it’s a real killer. It’s about trade offs for me at this point but I believe I’m settling on keeping motion smoothing on as it allows you to keep MSAA on and jack up the detail/SS/Visual quality (and hope the SteamVR motion smoothing engine or in game AA option improve in time). YMMV as I’m still beginning the process of optimizing things (process lasso, GPU OC’ing, etc)

Wow thanks for the advanced research Brixmis - good to know. The PS came with the pre-configured system I bought back in June. Not at all opposed to upgrading if need be if more wattage (or quality) is advised. Good to know my current PS isn’t complete junk according to those reviews at least. I haven’t noticed any instability at all in the 2 months I’ve had the system (no device issues, blue screens, crashes, etc) but I haven’t really started pushing things like OC’ing the GPU, etc... so I get the sense it’s not a weak point but will find ways to monitor and keep my eye on it.

Right on thanks for the insight, that's interesting... yeah the Steam Motion Reprojection is a bit of a voodoo thing, my research has yielded I can seemingly do nothing about it (no option to disable, configure or otherwise tweak). As I understand my only option is really enabling "Motion Smoothing" or not which in effect does what you are referring to I think (lock framerates at 1/2 the refresh rate and do some frame smoothing thing like ASW) I've actually been swapping between c: drive images (one with a relatively clean rift s config and one with the new Index). I just switched back to the Rift S setup to run a quick mission for fun. I run the Rift S with ASW on/40frames and in retrospect I may have been overly harsh on the Steam Motion Smoothing implementation, it certainly does introduce some real wonkiness during aggressive maneuvering (warping effect on the cockpit frames and stores, etc.)... I never noticed it on the Rift S/ASW but it's there as well just not quite as pronounced. I'll have to poke around...I'm not aware how to get Oculus to lock the frame rate but NOT enable ASW (I use the Oculus Tray Tool and it's not readily apparent how to do that?). If SteamVR has such an option I'd love to find it too. I tried running a mission with the Index/Motion Smoothing off/No MSAA on the PG map and the jaggies/shimmering was a real dealbreaker... the airport I spawned at was an eyesore... it was too much so I need to find a way to enable MSAA... I'm going to a play a bit with SteamVR's Motion Smoothing and see if I can live with it. anyhow thanks again...

750 Watt... I believe it's this make/model https://www.gamdias.com/component/index.php/psu-power/astrape-p1-750g Possible it's not enough considering VR, thrustmasters, 2080ti, etc?

I have to admit you appear right about the NCP settings... I just Restored to default (then just change the Power to Prefer Max) and I don't really see any difference so I suppose I'll sit tight on those. Just did my usual test flight (F/A-18 Instant Action free flight Caucasus) and frametimes w/o MSAA (and the rest of noted settings) are sub-11ms aggressively maneuvering 200ft over the town, rock solid 80fps with a fair amount of town clutter there - it's great. Once I turn MSAA to 2x the frame rate fluctuates anywhere from 40 to 80 (depending on my sight line) and the frame times fluctuate from 11's to just under 14's. It's the moment the frametimes broach 13ms that the ghosting starts (oddly the framerate is still above 40 though... weird) - whatever that mid-line is in the fpsVR overlay chart when the frametimes go above it (orange zone) things blur. I'm not sure what drives GPU frame times (might focus on CPU affinity i suppose). Anyhow, I know I'm trying to push for decent cockpit clarity using the Index AND choosing a test map/town that has a fair amount of clutter to push it... I'm going to fly around the desert for a bit and actually blow some stuff up LOL

So just to supply a bit of closure for those following along (and those in future who might be in the same situation) I think I've settled on the necessary settings & configuration to get my Index functioning adequately in DCS. In short, I've been through every permutation of nVidia Control Panel, DCS and SteamVR settings possible... up-to-and-including dropping DCS down to the default "Low" system settings and one-by-one increasing settings to see what impacts what. What I've learned is that MSAA is really the bane of my existence. In order to get to what I consider decent/above average visual quality in DCS I basically have to forego MSAA in DCS. Based on the settings below (basically 80mhz, 120% SS, no motion smoothing in SteamVR, DCS PD of 1.0, no shadows, no MSAA, no AF and use nVidia AA instead) I can easily maintain 80fps over what I consider a pretty busy scene on the Caucasus map (PG and NTTR deserts are definitely not a problem). Pretty happy with the visual experience (and no warping of anything due to wonky motion smoothing) EXCEPT man... the shimmering... my god the shimmering. Runway taxi lines, power lines/poles, bridges, smokestacks and rooftops in the distance all shimmering. MSAA 2x mitigates it (doesn't completely eliminate tho) but the instant it's enabled at even the lowest levels of details I get a ghosting, blurry, stuttering mess. Assuming I can get my dead pixels (and fingers crossed my ever whizzing base station behind me) replaced I do believe I'll keep the index. I've been swapping back and forth the past 4 days between the Index and Rift S and while I do love the Rift S (it's value really is to be appreciated) the comfort, FOV, color improvement, adjustability and room for growth make it worth keeping (barely but yes). HOPEFULLY ED can bring some optimizations and improvements to the gfx engine to the table to alleviate the shimmering... In the meantime if anyone has any recommendations, outside of turning on MSAA, to combat shimmering I'm all ears.. and thanks to all who have chimed in with recommendations already it's been really helpful.

Very cool that they are sending an advanced replacement. I would add that based on my copious amount of tweaking & testing (more on that in a final post shortly) you definitely have a bum unit... I haven't noticed anything of which you describe. I'm curious how long did it take for them to respond to your support request? It seems like it's only been a few days right? I submitted my support ticket for the excessively loud Base Station and, more importantly, the headset/eyepiece with the dead pixels early Monday AM. I have to admit getting an advanced replacement would go a long way towards me considering and likely keeping the whole package...

Yep well said, this largely why I abandoned the journey down the rabbit hole related to TBTM in the first place...Especially considering I’m skeptical it’s the cause of my DCS issues at this point. There a people running very standard setups with equal or lesser hardware not experiencing my issue so I’m happy spending my time elsewhere

Got it thanks guys... so I was able to find the option in BIOS exactly as you stated @Mattmad_BFC... Turbo Mode under Intel Speed Step is indeed enabled (good job AMT hiding that option deep in BIOS). Where I get confused and contrary to your setup apparently Alec is I can find no evidence of the Intel TBTM in Windows 10 at all. No "control panel" I've found images of online (see attached I pulled from Google), services (running or not), tasks, processes, applications or even folders under Program Files/Intel. Is there an install package that would've been downloaded and installed in Windows I should be aware of? Is there a .exe or path I can check? It's enabled in BIOS but I have no blessed idea whether it exists in my Windows setup... This is the rabbit hole I went down a few months ago when I read countless times it's helpful to "disable TBTM"... it's amazing I've googled every permutation of TBTM and Windows 10, ASUS, American Megatrends, BIOS, etc. and this thing is confounding... and worst part may not be an issue at all. Anyhow this is indeed helpful in hopefully checking this potential issue off the list. In the meantime I have filed a support ticket w/ Valve regarding the dead pixels on my Index and the excessively loud Base Station... should be interesting!

Good stuff Alec Frametimes: I was seeing ~18ms Frame times on the GPU and super stable and no red spikes or anything on the chart. I don’t recall the CPU frametimes (I did save the session logs but can check) however the moving chart below the value on that side was all green so I didn’t get the sense it should be a concern (the GPU side seemed more elevated and would fluctuate rarely whereas the CPU side never budged from green). I recall it stating the Motion Reprojection was in effect like 45% (motion smoothing off) and like 1-2 dropped frames over an 8-10 minute flight (which I attributed to right after the sim loaded from the main menu, the number never increased during flight) Intel Turbo Boost: so I came across talk of that shortly after I built the system poked around bios a bit (apparently the only place to disable is in BIOS?) and wasn’t 100% sure I found it in BIOS. I think it’s still active so I’ll revisit. EDIT: I, for the life of me, can't find where to disable this or any evidence in Windows 10 that this is present (no Intel Turbo Boost Max services running and I can't find System Configuration > BIOS/Platform Configuration (RBSU) > Performance Options > Intel ® Turbo Boost Technology option in BIOS) so I'm thinking this is a non-issue. Process Lasso: saw a lot about this early on as well and dabbled in setting core priorities a bit but haven’t done a deep dive on this as I’ve never got the sense (especially in simple free flights w no huge battles etc going on) that I’m CPU bottlenecked. I suppose this is worth another look tho too. It’s worth noting that as with the above 2 items I came across a lot of talk about Win10 Game Mode so that’s def turned off too... So last night I reverted to my Rift S Windows system backup and plugged the Rift S back in and fired up the same free flight mission I’d been using. Much to my surprise when turning off ASW 2.0 via the Oculus Tray Tool I see THE SAME EXACT ISSUE on the Rift S. Double vision and ghosting on ground objects. Meanwhile frame rates never dropped below 40 (with ASW off it just fluctuates up more) The kicker is turning ASW back on fixes it without the warping cockpit issues I see when using the Valve Motion Smoothing. Hmmmmmmm

Very interesting to see you are using 8x AA, FXAA on and VR pre-rendered frames = 3 in the nVidia settings. I’ve had those all turned off (or application controlled). If you have a minute let me know what you are using in DCS for MSAA (I’ve needed a min of 2x to combat shimmering in the sim) and Aniostropic Filtering (I’ve tried 0x, 8x, 16x and not even really sure what impact it has pro or con). I know MSAA has a pretty big impact on perf... Regardless thanks - it’s helpful to see others nVidia settings as those are rare and difficult to share!

Good to know and thanks for the additional info (and the empathy). A few more sessions this afternoon - including switching up to a free flight on another map (PG) just to be sure it wasn't map related. I updated the nVidia drivers AND did a repair of DCS and still get the blurry/out of focus/ghosting? issue. (I also checked that I have the fix for the Windows 1903 update "blurry" WMR fix and I do) I did spend a fair amount of time using fpsVR today and I'm very confident it's not a performance or overtaxing of the GPU issue. At 90mhz, 150% SS, motion smoothing off and DCS PD of 1.0 the cockpit is crystal clear with no warping/waviness and according to fpsVR the framerate never once dropped below 45fps... it's really really smooth... however objects outside the cockpit are all blurry... doing a slow speed pass over a road in Dubai and focusing in on a moving car I'm seeing a car with... well... the ghost of a car halfway behind it... same for parked cars, buildings and trees, etc. etc. so I guess "ghosting" is the issue I'm looking to resolve. I'm going to do a wipe and reinstall of DCS (after taking a backup) and if that doesn't help... I'm stumped. I'll be sending the headset back anyhow due to the dead pixels so maybe a replacement headset will help... if not, it'll go back and I'll live with the Rift S... Anyhow in the meantime, if anyone reading this has input on resolving "ghosting" in VR I'm all ears.

Based articles I've come across I *think* that SteamVR motion smoothing may only be supported on the HTC Vive, Vive Pro and Index but haven't been able to confirm that for sure. That might be why you aren't seeing the option (the checkbox would appear right above the Application Resolution option).