Father Cool

I don't care how big your ego is. If you have a business to run and a 'fair' contract is put in front of you to sign then you sign it rather than bankrupt your company. Ergo, I suspect it's not fair in some way.

Well ok it was implied that governments would not be allowed to use DCS and therefore must buy into TBS instead. In no way shape or form is it suggested that RB was going to provide the FAE with TBS itself so that would be a contract between FAE and ED and any payment made to them directly for using their software (EDGE) Much like a company making a program to run on windows, that company has no contract that says that they have to pay Microsoft a percentage of their income to use code that interfaces with Windows to allow them to sell their product. Microsoft makes its money by selling the operating system and their own programs that run on it, much like ED do with EDGE. I realise it's all speculation but can you think of a reason that RB would throw away the business and income of both DCS and TBS over a contract unless it was financially unfair to them?

I kind of think it is though to a certain degree. If RB have refused to sign a contract that effectly means they can no longer run their business then I would assume that it is more than greed on their part. If the contract that ED proposed to allow them to develope the A-29 for the FAE were reasonable then they would have no reason not to sign it. Who knows.

Yes agreed, however the discussion was based on the supposed new info that he has had access to, this has shed new light on the situation for me and although Spud has approached the video in a way that tries to paint RB at fault I am left doubtful of this to some degree given what he is saying in the video. The video states nothing at all about RB trying to sell TBS to the FAE but an several occasions speaks about developing an A-29 for the TBS, which ED sells independently to the governments/air forces etc for flight sim purposes. As I said (and he says in the video) that's fine and above board, but ED want a new contract for RB to develop for the TBS side of EDGE, again understandable. My issue is with the reason RB is not signing it. It makes no sense at all given RB's modules and business within DCS and also their potential financial gain through mil sim development to not sign it. The only possible reason is that ED are trying to milk a lions share from RB's profits in the venture. Why else would RB throw the whole project and all of their existing DCS projects under the bus?

As I said it was implied in the video, I would have to rewatch it. If they don't I still don't see how RB could provide it to them as they won't have the actual software to sell to them. The aircraft they were making interfaces with EDGE, they weren't selling TBS itself. They wouldn't be able to legally do that regardless of contracts.

Not at all. As I stated in my post, according to the Spud video the FAE already use TBS (which uses the EDGE core engine) for their simulators and therefore the statement in the terms here: Government and commercial entities wishing to use this software in conjunction with training or demonstrator applications must obtain a license directly from Eagle Dynamics SA under a separate pricing structure and terms of use. Will have already been met under a contract with FAE to use EDGE. RB making effectively a module to run on that is a separate contract between ED and RB for development purposes and is of course subject to a different contract. ED are of course within their rights to set out pricing for RB to develop an aircraft to run on TBS however I am guessing here that the % was too high in RB's opinion. All I am saying it that to blanket state that RB are just being insane not to sign it is naïve. For all we know ED may be demanding 50% of the fee or something which would be outrageous if they already have a contract in place for the FAE to us TBS in the first place. RB have to make a project financially viable and I would assume the T&Cs of the new contract made it not.

The thing is, what is the 'loophole' here? As I said in my post, the dispute is not that RB are using ED's code for purposes other than it was provided for, they are not. The FAE (according to Spuds video) is using TBS legally (and I assume paying ED for the privilege) and as such RB developing an aircraft for it using the EDGE code is also legal and in fact necessary for it to work. RB are not selling ED's code as if its their product they are selling a service to the FAE that interfaces with EDGE and therefore has to use that code, which without the core engine supplied by ED is useless. The whole thing as stated on Spuds video implies that ED already source the EDGE engine to FAE (correct me if I am wrong). The new contract with ED presented to RB for the development of the A-39 therefore must have had some clause in it that gave a further financial gain to ED and RB obviously deemed the conditions unfair or else would have signed it without issue.

I look at Spudknockers video slightly differently to you. The video is a little disingenuous I feel, crafted to make Razbam's part in this to seem ridiculous. However as a business they are not going to throw money away and they are not going to refuse to sign a contract unless they feel that the terms of that contract is unfair. This is of course speculation on my part as I know as much as anyone else but from what Spud was saying it seems that EDGE is owned by ED and is used by governments for flight sims in TBS. That engine is also used in DCS of course. Also from the video Spud states that there is nothing wrong with Razbam developing an aircraft for governments to use in TBS, it is not classed as going behind anyone's back in that regard. Razbam have a contract with the FAE and that's nothing to do with ED, and this is where it gets muddy. If it was simply a case of signing a new contract with ED to allow the rights for a module that they were doing for DCS to also be used in TBS then I am sure Razbam would sign it post haste. Why would you not? However it seems obvious here that ED are wanting some monetary cut from the deal with between RB and FAE and that's where the dispute seems to lie. Again purely speculation but my feeling on this will be that RB has done a deal with FAE for the development of the A-39 and FAE separately pays ED for the use of TBS as software. The A-39 must use EDGE because TBS uses EDGE and that's what the FAE are paying for. It seems to me that the dynamic here should be that ED makes money from the use of EDGE and TBS and RB makes its money from the contract for the development of the A-39 to use on EDGE and subsequently TBS. For Razbam not to sign the contract there absolutely has to be something in that ED contract that states a certain percentage of the deal between RB and FAE is paid to ED as well. If that's the case I think that RB have a point. It is akin to Bill gates demanding a cut from every program ever developed to run on windows. Doesn't happen. The product that ED is selling there is the use of EDGE and TBS by the governments (a substantial payment I should imagine) not subsequent software developed to run on it by third parties. Whilst I am not against ED asking for a small fee (although again the FAE is clearly locked into a contract with ED and the use of TBS I am sure), I suspect that the contract is in RB's eyes asking for too much. Originally I was unaware that the military level simulator was also an ED product so the accusation of RB using IP made me think that RB were using ED's code to make their own simulator, however that is clearly not the case so for me the dynamics have changed massively. It's ok to say you're flabbergasted that RB wont sign the contract but unless you know what the contract asks for then you can't comment really on what you would do.

Oh wind your neck in. I assumed a misunderstanding but I obviously didn't.

With respect I don't misunderstand the dispute. It sucks for us from both perspectives. I just interpreted your comments as to imply that RB and more specifically M2M should crack on and carry on working despite it with your 'threat tactics' and 'take his bat and ball home' comment that's all and that that isn't a fair expectation from people who aren't being paid, regardless of the background situation. Sorry for any confusion there.

No I don't forget that at all, however, that still doesn't then mean that the contractor then has to work on for free from then on out. The comment stated that it was RB taking their ball home by not continuing development and updates to their modules which despite the IP issue cannot be expected to carry on without payment regardless.

I'm not a fan boy of anyone and I don't know what truth there is in the 'he said she said' of whether RB have been paid or not (I suspect not or this whole thing wouldn't be an issue in the first place), but as a business owner if I had supplied a product and wasn't paid for it then I certainly wouldn't be continuing the maintenance of the that product while the courts decide on whether I deserve my money or not. You can't expect RB (or anyone working for them such as M2M) to either. Hardly taking your bat and ball home is it.

What utter BS, so now we can just say F22 is unbeatable in combat because whenever its put up against anything its intentionally made to lose to hide what it can do? Ok lol

Correct. You can set it to continuously update i.e not freeze but it needs to rescan each time it does and takes computing power and essential time to do so for no benefit.

This doesn't work for me because when I go back into open beta the 'your layouts' tab doesn't exist and it says that the DCS FILMING layout is not available in cloud.