Mirage2425

So with the TGP loaded the ball should be dead center? How do you trim with the TGP loaded except for what I'm doing now which is moving the ball to the left line then roll trimming. Is that how they do it IRL?

So I've posted a couple of times on this with trim issues relating to the TGP. ED has come back with it being as designed. That's because they are correct, it is as designed. However, I've done a lot of research and talked to a real life Viper pilot and I believe the real issue is that there is a minor issue with the turn and slip indicator (the Viper pilot told me about it that instrument). The turn and slip indicator detects if an aircraft is skidding. If the ball isn't centered then the aircraft's center of gravity is off and the aircraft's yaw is off. Below is an article from Wikipedia on the turn and slip indicator: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_and_slip_indicator#:~:text=The turn indicator is a,is mounted in a gimbal.&text=As the aircraft yaws%2C a,precession around the roll axis. Every aircraft is a little off due to bent airframes, regardless of whether the TGP is on the aircraft and requires trimming. When you takeoff you set a takeoff trim to get the aircraft safely off the ground. The aircraft is not perfectly trimmed at this point. Then, when you are at altitude and you have a few seconds you perfectly trim the aircraft. To do this you first set a constant speed and adjust yaw trim so the ball is centered and then use roll trim to perfectly trim the aircraft. Then, when you drop ordinance you can compensate simply with roll trim. Here's where the problem comes in. When you start trimming the ball is perfectly centered. It shouldn't be. It should be off to the left or right to indicate the aircraft is slipping. As a result I have to move the ball all the way to the line on the left or right using yaw trim and then use roll trim to trim the aircraft perfectly. This works but for realism it would be better if the ball is offset if the aircraft is slipping. I can completely trim the aircraft at this point. It took that Viper pilot to get me there. I would suggest that Wags do a video on this very important topic as a lot of people struggle with it.

+1 on the above. Using ground speed in the mission editor doesn't make any sense. We don't use ground speed, except on the ground. CBOOTHE, I use the acrobatics task to practice formation flying. Won't help for missions but if you are looking to practice only it's a workaround. AI will flip their wing up pretty quick when entering a turn but other than that I can maintain fingertip on their wing.

I had some suggestions for improvement of the AI. This would improve immersion in single player or multiplayer with AI part of the flight. See below: 1. Ability to select a takeoff type in the editor and the AI use that takeoff method (i.e. formation, trail departure, etc). 2. More realistic communication from the AI (calls for tied, visual, etc). This applies to rejoin as well as A2A and A2G as well. 3. Ability to have a briefed rejoin set in the mission editor. This would be a steerpoint with a rejoin task of en route or CV rendevous. The AI shouldn't be in burner during rejoin. Lead needs to slow down to affect rejoin. 4. Ability to have the AI fly high cover during player bombing run and call out AAA and SAM's (ex. Missile, Missile, Missile, flares flares flares!). Player can do the same for AI and if player doesn't make calls the AI has a lower chance of survival. This also can apply to A2A as well, particularly dogfights. In order to make this work there probably should be a easy way to make these calls (voice recognition maybe?). 5 Ability to fly a wheel with the AI when bombing A2G targets. 6. Ability to have the AI orbit at a specific range from a steerpoint. This can be useful in conjunction with mark points, when implemented, to keep the AI out of the WEZ from a SAM. 7. Ability to have the AI act as bait in wild weasel missions and for player to also act as bait. 8. AI to call direction of attack (i.e. two, in from the west). Also call off the target. 9. When AI calls defending have them specify direction (i.e., defending to the north). 10. Ability to fly a hot/cold CAP with the AI. 11. More advanced A2A tactics with the AI for A2A (i.e. bracket). 12. Ability to direct tac turns. 13. Ability to do a overhead break. 14. Ability of player to fly as #2. 15. Ability to request fuel state from AI. 16. Require human pilot to enter pre-contact position and stabilize. Tanker should clear pilot in. Also, tanker should call breakaway, breakaway, breakaway if pilot gets too close. All of these things will add to immersion. As I think of more items I'll add them to this thread. Does anyone else have any ideas that could help immersion when playing with the AI?

I know this topic says cannot reproduce but I've run into this and reported it previously as well. I promised BIGNEWY a track file but I got so frustrated with Mav's I switched to A2A exclusively for a while. I was planning on trying Mav's again and will upload a track if I run into this in the future. This definitely is an issue and very frustrating.

I just had a suggestion about dogfighting with the AI. Would it be possible to have the AI transition to a scissors when I transition to his six instead of going into the vertical? That would be way more challenging and more realistic. After I've been in a rate fight with the AI for a while my energy is lower while the bandit's energy is way higher than it should be. I suspect this has to do with AI using the simple flight model. There is no way I can follow the AI into the vertical and if I'm carrying a 9x I can just shoot him. Anyway, making this simple change would make the AI more challenging until more work can be done on the them. It's not always feasible to fly multiplayer (in fact I struggle with making my availability match that of other members of the squadron I belong to) so being able to practice against the AI and them be able to offer more of a challenge would be awesome. Thanks

I'll take a track and upload it. I didn't initially as I didn't think you would be able to tell from a track file as it's just multiple mouse clicks on the OSB button without it changing as it should. This is definitely an issue. If there is anything else I can do to help please let me know.

Mark points would do the trick, provided you put it in PRE and left there. My personal opinion is that ED's #1 priority is to make the TGP and MAV's work as it should. Until they do I won't use MAV's. It's just too frustrating. Their #2 and #3 priority, in my humble opinion should be mark points and JHMCS A2G integration. Being able to use the jet against unplanned targets (no steerpoint created ahead of time) should be a top priority (again in my humble opinion).

@Bbow, TMS down should fix that, I think.

I'm on the latest Open Beta update and it's still an issue. There are improvements but it's still a long way off. I'm going to stop using Mav's as well until things improve.

Has anyone noticed that Mavericks can get stuck in a mode, say VIS. You can't switch to BORE or PRE. Actually, it happens almost every time I fly with Mavericks. I end up just using the Maverick seeker head instead of the TGP for targeting. The same thing happened with snowplow mode on the TGP but that appears to be corrected as of the last update. Using the TGP with Mav's is really difficult. There are just too many issues. Any one else run into these issues?

Got it, thanks randomTOTEN. We'll see if the drag on the TGP is accurate. Either way it's not going to take away the pilot's responsibility to control the aircraft.

I've been thinking about this more and if you set trim it will only be effective at that altitude and speed. I've noticed at higher altitudes the jet doesn't roll as much. This must be due to thinner air. So trim must be there to assist the pilot in dealing with asymmetric loadouts, not to eliminate it entirely. I doubt a combat pilot is constantly trimming the aircraft as they change speed and altitude.

On another note, how do you take control of a track?

No angry reply from me actually. I want the jet to be as realistic as possible and I want to learn how to fly it that way. I've found that using the TGP or the Maverick difficult as it takes me a long time to find and get a firing solution on a target. This will get better with time as I practice. If this is really the way the jet is I want it to stay that way and learn to compensate. I've already learned to compensate some during refueling and formation flying. It's just the heads down tasks I struggle with. So you are saying if I set a specific fuel flow and allow the speed to stabilize it will be easier to trim the jet? I can try to apply rudder to compensate but I currently have the cheap thrustmaster pedals and it's difficult to apply just a little rudder. I'll continue to practice that. To summarize, if this is the way it is IRL then that's the way it needs to stay. I just need to continue to get better and learn to go heads up from time to time to make sure the roll doesn't get out of control. Thank-you for the response.

I was talking with BIGNEWY on Discord and he suggested I upload a track file for you to review. I know this has been brought up before and I think it was determined to not be a bug. That being said I was wondering if you guys would be willing to take another look and maybe run it past your SME's. When loaded with the TGP it's nearly impossible to completely trim the aircraft out. This makes tanking and formation flying difficult. I've attached a track for your review. In it I take off from Ramat David, bank to the right and then level off. I then wait about ten seconds to show the jet slowly rolls to the right. I then put in one click of trim and the jet starts slowly rolling to the left. If this is the way it is IRL then I definitely want to keep it that way. I just can't believe that the Air Force would allow something to be loaded onto the jet that compromises it's ability to fly straight and level. A lot of the work a pilot needs to do is heads down, whether it be working the radar or lining up for a LGB attack. If the jet is slowly rolling to the right or the left it makes it difficult. Please take another look at this and let me know. Thanks, Mirage TGP Trim Test.trk

Hopefully it will happen soon. The TGP is next to useless as is unless you drop on a waypoint and want to do BDA.

I'm not sure what the technical difficulty of this request is but implementing mark points could be a quick win.

Can we move the TGP waypoint to a high waypoint so that slewing the TGP doesn't affect the flight plan until offset can be implemented? Better yet a hidden waypoint? Also, temporary cursor zero functionality that slews the TGP back to the current waypoint? This would make the TGP easier to use. Thanks :)

F-16 Trim Thanks Deano87 I appreciate it! Good information. I'll give your suggestions a try.

I'm posting this as a question as it appears there as been a lot of discussion on this topic in bug reports (some heated) but unfortunately I still don't have the answer I need. This is related to F-16 trim, specifically when carrying TGP as well as after dropping ordinance. I'll start with the TGP. First, does loading the TGP cause the F-16 to need to be trimmed? It seems to me it would, but I've been told that because it's close to centerline it shouldn't require the aircraft to be trimmed. I'm not sure which is correct so I pose the question to the community. Second, I've been told that the FLCS handles handles trimming out the aircraft, except when you drop ordinance as the F-16 is truly fly by wire. They say ED will release a update in the future to correct the flight model. Based on the information I found in bug reports it doesn't seem to me that ED sees this as a bug. So, the question I have is does the F-16 require trimming like the F/A 18 or does the FLCS take care of it? Finally, if I apply any trim at all it seems I can't get the aircraft back to a trimmed state. For example, if I do one click of left trim and then do one click of right trim the aircraft should again be trimmed out, correct? That doesn't seem to be the case for me. This has made it extremely problematic for me after coming off a target as I've had to trim out the aircraft after dropping ordinance and then once the ordinance is gone I can't get the aircraft trimmed out again. This makes refueling problematic and I end up chasing the tanker all over the map. So, the overall question I have is this a problem with my understanding of the F-16 flight model and how to properly trim it out or is it a bug? Either way, I just want to learn and become a better pilot. If the problem is not related to a bug, how do I properly trim the aircraft? Any input anyone has is greatly appreciated!!!