Question about flare and MWS

Is it possible IRL that you will get MWS launch warning for example when your wingman will fire flare?

Is it possible IRL that you will get MWS launch warning for example when your wingman will fire flare?

Not sure, try it in DCS A10C supposedly a very accurate simulator so if it happens in there i guess it can happen IRL as well.

:music_whistling:

Depends on the exact IR and UV emissions of the flare. If it looks like a missile rocket, sure.

Is it possible IRL that you will get MWS launch warning for example when your wingman will fire flare?

Yes it's possible, but infrequent.

- Bear

Yes it's possible, but infrequent.

But it's not modeled in DCS.

Not sure about flares but definitely happens with mavs. I'd ordered my wingman to take something out with mavs and my MWS went mad at exactly the same time as he called missile away

Yes, but then again, AGM's are missiles.. Flares are not.

MWS however does not have magical knowledge about what is and what isn't a "missile".

Have you ever had it go off due to an explosion on the ground below you, for example? I have. :)

(Though I'm not the right person to say what things the real MWS would discriminate, lots of classified and noforn in those things I suspect.)

MWS however does not have magical knowledge about what is and what isn't a "missile".

 

Have you ever had it go off due to an explosion on the ground below you, for example? I have. :)

(Though I'm not the right person to say what things the real MWS would discriminate, lots of classified and noforn in those things I suspect.)

MWS is as far as i know designed to detect the plumes from missiles and rockets.

Flares are designed to mimic the engines of the aircraft, and to create a more tastier target for the IR seeker.

If your thesis is correct, the MWS should activate every time an F16 is nearby with afterburners on. I've flown close to F16's and F/A18's in multiple missions and did not get any MWS warnings. And they had AB on.

MWS is as far as i know designed to detect the plumes from missiles and rockets.

Correct, sort of. The type of MWS used in the A-10C (UV) is designed to detect missiles by picking up their launch plume. Other systems use other methods.

Here is a post I made in response to a similar question over at SimHQ.

Well, there are three types of MWS. Radar, IR, and UV. The system installed on the A-10C (and every other MWS eqipped jet I know of) is UV.

 

The sensors in UV systems are nothing more complicated than CCD/CMOS sensors tuned and filtered to pick up light in the UV part of the spectrum. They detect missile launches via the UV radiation emitted by the rocket motor, which is why they can only detect a missile if one of the sensors is looking in the right direction at the time of launch, as soon as the motor has burnt out the system can't detect the incoming missile. Now as all the system does is pick up on sources of UV radiation, any UV source could (in theory) cause the system to give a launch indication. Good software with a database containing the UV signatures of known sources can help recduce false indications, but nothing can ever stop them, there are just too many variables.

 

Between IR and UV systems, a UV system is least prone to producing false indications, especially at low level. IR systems also require cooling (just like an IR AAM) and so have a larger footprint on the aircraft, require more maintenence and are more expensive. IR systems however are more effective at high altitude and can (again in theory, and only at high altitude) detect an incoming missile after it's motor has burnt out using the heat generated on the missile body from friction of the air. As you can imagine, at low level an IR system is very prone to false indications which is, along with their higher cost, the main reason why UV systems tend to be preferred.

 

Radar systems, are least prone to false indications and can obviously detect a missile if its motor is burning or not, and even (in theory) determine if it's actually directed at your aircraft. But they are much more costly, larger, heavier and complicated than their UV and IR bretheren.

Flares are designed to mimic the engines of the aircraft, and to create a more tastier target for the IR seeker.

Not quite. They are designed to decoy IR guidance and tracking systems, such systems (especially modern ones) do not necessarily track the heat from an aircraft engines. They'll happily lock on, track and hit a glider. All flares are not created equal, there are various types each designed to work in different IR wavelegths to counter differet threats. Some aircraft have more than one type of flare loaded at the same time.

If your thesis is correct, the MWS should activate every time an F16 is nearby with afterburners on. I've flown close to F16's and F/A18's in multiple missions and did not get any MWS warnings. And they had AB on.

No it shouldn't, in the same way the RWR won't (in theory) go mental everytime is picks up any form of radio/microwave energy, the MWS won't (in theory) react to any IR/UV energy source. Of course the programming and rejection algorithims they employ are never 100% pefect, which is why you get false indications.

Actually, I don't have a thesis, I have only pointed out that it looks for a specific thing, and this thing is not "missile", it is plume and such, and exactly how discrimination happens is something we don't know.

Should it go off on flares? Probably not. But unless you know exactly how it does it and exactly what a given flare looks like to it, we won't know what it should do. I'm with you that flares shouldn't set it off, but question is whether there are cases where it could? Again, probably not, but this is guessing country for both of us. :)

Of course the programming and rejection algorithims they employ are never 100% pefect, which is why you get false indications.

Sometimes I wish we could get an appropriate amount of false positives for all relevant sensors. Would be fun to wade through the bug reports. :D

Is it possible IRL that you will get MWS launch warning for example when your wingman will fire flare?

This has happens all the time IRL. Sitting in a stack with everyone set to auto and if the top aircraft catches a glint off of a reflective surface you get an impressive cascading fireworks show. Pretty to look at, but nerve wracking until accustomed to it.

(Note: Aircraft was equipped with AAR-47/ALE-47 system, more info below)

The Self Protection System (SPS) consists of the AAR-47 Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and the ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispensing System (CMDS). The MAWS is a passive electro-optic missile warning system designed to warn the crew about a missile threat. The SPS detects radiation associated with a rocket motor and passes the information to the CMDS. The CMDS is computer controlled to dispense expendable decoys designed to employ electronic and infrared countermeasures to gain maximum survivability of the aircraft and crew.

The AAR-47 Missile Warning System (MWS) warns of a missile approach by detecting radiation associated with the missile's rocket motor. The system can be set to automatically initiate flare ejection or some other payload (e.g., chaff). Manual payload ejection is also possible by any crew member using a readily available dispense switch (dispense switches are part of the ALE-47 system). The AAR-47 consists of four (4) sensor assemblies mounted in each aircraft quadrant (two FWD, two AFT), computer processor, Control Indicator (CI), and threat indicator.

The AAR-47 is a passive Electro-Optic MWS designed to provide warning of surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles. Detection algorithms discriminate against non-approaching radiation sources. The Warning System provides attacking missile declaration and section direction finding and is interfaced directly to the ALE-47 Counter Measures (CM) system.