[REPORTED]Helicopters and planes don't fire missiles!!! Please check.

I don't know what is wrong with version 1.5, but it seems that the AI of the helicopters and planes is bugged.

My Gori Valley is an imersive ground attack / defense mission, and the helicopters with AI are flying around like rookies on the battlefield. They approach the enemy till the last 500 yards and still they are not firing their missiles or cannons. They do react well when fired upon in terms of evasive manoeuvring. As a result, tanks are driving around freely without air threats...

Note that air-to-air battles between helicopters is ok though...

Sven

Test Mission

I don't know what is wrong with version 1.5, but it seems that the AI of the helicopters and planes is bugged.

 

My Gori Valley is an imersive ground attack / defense mission, and the helicopters with AI are flying around like rookies on the battlefield. They approach the enemy till the last 500 yards and still they are not firing their missiles or cannons. They do react well when fired upon in terms of evasive manoeuvring. As a result, tanks are driving around freely without air threats...

 

Note that air-to-air battles between helicopters is ok though...

 

Sven

To simulate the problem, find attached a test mission. Follow the MI-28N, and observe. It just does not fire to the tanks. You can play with the mission configuration and test other helicopters.

Test Mission Fire Problem 1.5.zip

Newy, "CAS" is an enroute task.

I reported it. Its a very strange issue as the weapons available and target seems to play a role. If the HAI decides to enter a hover they will be perfectly content sitting there and shooting the targets. However the Mi-28 against tanks doesn't want to enter a hover and prefers to attack moving slightly forward, which is how it get stuck in a loop attempting to extend and maneuver to find a new shooting position but never finds it. Against IFVs the Mi-28 gets into a hover and engages normally. Interestingly the Mi-24 has similar behavior, but it is able to turn back onto the targets to engage. Ka-50 and Apache seem to be just fine due to their primary ATGM having longer range and they hover to attack.

Well, I tried the ka-50 also, but they just don't shoot...

Well, I tried the ka-50 also, but they just don't shoot...

It does in your sample mission if I give the flight a short route so they don't RTB immediately. Can you describe in detail what you see on your end or attach a track? "they just don't shoot" is not an adequate description.

Test Cases and Test Results

Hi Grimes and Co,

You asked me to be more specific, well, find the following test results ... :pilotfly: ... I've made test cases with 3 helicopters, in 3 battle field scenarios, testing 3 different engagement types for each helicopter type.

Helicopters:

- KA-50

- MI-24V

- MI-28N

Battle Scenarios:

- Tanks Activated, SAMs not activated, Not moving.

- Tanks Activated, SAMs activated, Not moving.

- Tanks Activated, SAMs activated, Moving.

Engagement Types:

- Weapons Free, Passive Defense

- Weapons Free, Allow Abort Mission

- Designated Only, Allow Abort Mission

For each combination, find below the test results table.

The results show:

- Effectivity = +++ = very good; --- = very bad

- Missiles fired = How many missiles were fired in 10 minutes of flight

- Time and Frequency = How long till firing first missile, and how frequent missiles were fired.

- Notes = Explanation of a few more details.

In a summary, the following can be concluded:

1. All helicopters get really ineffective, if Ground units are moving, and Reaction to Threat is Allow Abort Mission. then the effectivity of AI is completely useless.

2. When ground units are not moving, AI is also ineffective, but depending on the helicopter, AI can still fire missiles.

3. The KA-50 is the best helicopter around.

4. MI-24V helicopters don't hover, the fly directly into the battle zone.

5. MI-28N helicopters are the least effective.

I would really study the table, it shows the effectivity and the ineffective behaviour of ROE and RTT paramters. This really needs to be looked at.

For each scenario, I've added a ZIP files the for each test case a separate mission (miz-file), so anybody can use that to test quickly the AI effectivity. I've only tested the RED parts right now, the BLUE ones are still to come.

One last note: There is an other bug. When the KA-50 fires a missile, the vikr BAY on the wing does not show an empty slot after firing. I'll report that also in a separate mail.

Find the table of the findings below:

Ref     Effective       Side    Unit    ROE                 RTT                 SAMs        SAMs        Missiles    Time in sec     Additional Notes
                                                                               Active      Moving      Fired       Start/Freq              
---     ---------       ----    ----    ---                 ---                 ------      ------      --------    -----------     ----------------

1.1     +++             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Passive Defense     No          No          6           60/10           Perfect!
1.2     ++              Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Allow Abort         No          No          6           60/10           Heli flies first to safety zone before firing.
1.3     ++              Russia  KA-50   Only designated     Allow Abort         No          No          6           60/10           Heli flies first to safety zone before firing. Hovering and firing. Perfect.
1.4     +++             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Passive Defense     Yes         No          6           90/10           First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
1.5     +++             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Allow Abort         Yes         No          6           180/20          Heli flies first to safety zone before firing. First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
1.6     +++             Russia  KA-50   Only designated     Allow Abort         Yes         No          6           180/20          Heli flies first to safety zone before firing. First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
1.7     +++             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Passive Defense     Yes         Yes         6           60/10           First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect![color=Red]
1.8     ---             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Allow Abort         Yes         Yes         0           -               Helicopter is flying like a rookie. No missiles fired, and flying around...
1.9     ---             Russia  KA-50   Only designated     Allow Abort         Yes         Yes         0           -               Helicopter is flying like a rookie. No missiles fired, and flying around...[/color]

2.1     +++             Russia  MI-24V  Weapons Free        Passive Defense     No          No          8           90/15           Attacking, firing missiles. Because the heli is a flying tank, it engages on the field.
2.2     -               Russia  MI-24V  Weapons Free        Allow Abort         No          No          5           180/60          Heli flies around for 2 minutes before firing a missile. Flies around a lot before firing.
2.3     -               Russia  MI-24V  Only designated     Allow Abort         No          No          4           60/15           Heli flies around for 2 minutes before firing a missile. Flies around a lot before firing.
2.4     +++             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Passive Defense     Yes         No          8           90/15           Attacking, firing missiles. Because the heli is a flying tank, it engages on the field.
2.5     +               Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Allow Abort         Yes         No          5           180/60          Heli flies around for 2 minutes before firing a missile. Flies around a lot before firing.
2.6     +               Russia  KA-50   Only designated     Allow Abort         Yes         No          6           180/60          Heli flies first to safety zone before firing. First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
2.7     +               Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Passive Defense     Yes         Yes         4           60/30           Flying around firing missiles. Low effectivity due to missile older technology.
[color=Red]2.8     ---             Russia  KA-50   Weapons Free        Allow Abort         Yes         Yes         0           -               Helicopter is flying like a rookie. No missiles fired, and flying around...
2.9     ---             Russia  KA-50   Only designated     Allow Abort         Yes         Yes         0           -               Helicopter is flying like a rookie. No missiles fired, and flying around...[/color]

3.1     +++             Russia  MI-28N  Weapons Free        Passive Defense     No          No          8           60/30           Perfect!
3.2     ++              Russia  MI-28N  Weapons Free        Allow Abort         No          No          8           60/30           Fires missiles. Evades first to safety zone.
3.3     --              Russia  MI-28N  Only designated     Allow Abort         No          No          4           60/60           Sporadically fires missiles. Flying around like a rookie.
3.4     +               Russia  MI-28N  Weapons Free        Passive Defense     Yes         No          8           90/10           First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
3.5     +               Russia  MI-28N  Weapons Free        Allow Abort         Yes         No          8           180/10          KA-50 flies first to safety zone before firing. First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
3.6     +               Russia  MI-28N  Only designated     Allow Abort         Yes         No          8           180/10          KA-50 flies first to safety zone before firing. First scans the SAMs, then fires the SAMS, then the other ground units. Perfect!
3.7     +               Russia  MI-28N  Weapons Free        Passive Defense     Yes         Yes         8           60/10           Low effectivity due to moving targets.
[color=Red]3.8     ---             Russia  MI-28N  Weapons Free        Allow Abort         Yes         Yes         0           -               Helicopter is flying like a rookie. No missiles fired, and flying around... Helicopter was shot down.
3.9     ---             Russia  MI-28N  Only designated     Allow Abort         Yes         Yes         0           -               Helicopter is flying like a rookie. No missiles fired, and flying around... Helicopter was shot down.[/color]

Helicopter Missile Firing Bug in 1.5 - Cases.zip

Helicopter Missile Firing Bug in 1.5 - Results.txt

Very methodical tests. :) The behavior is pretty much what I've replicated for the bug report, though I did it without sams ^_^

Will add the reaction to threat information to the bug report. Also I noticed the Ka-50 vikhers, thanks for reminding me.

Hi grimes. Thanks for the feedback. The presence of SAMs makes ai even perform worse... So it is an important attention point for the developers. Otherwise the helicopters won't properly start evasive maneuvers and flares. Once the fix is there, we can reuse the test cases for regression tests.

I don't see how you be completely unhappy with Allow Abort outcome ... it seems like that setting is in there to encourage SEAD flights to be effective. If a player is flying SEAD and doesn't do the job then down stream effectiveness of mission elements fails. This is kind of what you want.

Of the choppers only the KA-50 should be partially effective in this instance and it looks like they are. Again not perfect simulation but in general not a bad result.

As for individual AI unit performance in DCS. :noexpression: No comment.

Hi vicx, I don't understand your feedback. I think you miss the point of the report. The ka-50 performs very bad also in certain cases. The issues are that helicopters should be able to engage at safe distance, regardless of the threat reaction settings when they are out of the engagement zone of the enemy. And they don't seem to do that. Both the KA-50 and the MI-24N should engage from a safe distance. That is what they were designed for.

Sorry, I mean to say that where there is buggy behaviour it is not always clear where the problem lies. You might need to split up the report and that is what Grimes has done.

Vicx, What split would you suggest? You are right, buggy behaviour needs root cause analysis. That is the reason why the scenarios were made with the report.

Just note that I know the simulator very well, been in it for years, designing and scripting many missions. As such, I have a good feeling on what I can expect the AI to do and what not. During the history of dcs (from version 1.1), I've been helping dcs with these kind of reports detecting and reporting bugs, as many others did. That is why there is a beta. DCS will decide together with the moderators what to fix and how. But it is great that the guys leave us a possibility to test and improve stability and behaviour before release.

I hope they appreciate the time we spend on it, as it may become useful for others and for themselves.