SU-25T SEAD missions

[The_Pharoah]

Hi guys

 

I've always enjoyed SU-25T SEAD missions, clearing the way for the A10s, etc. Most of the missions I've played have been relatively easy ie. switch to SEAD mode (ETS), find the SAM/Radar site, lock, rifle, kill. :thumbup:

 

NOW...I was flying an MP mission last night...into an area which was supposed to be infested with SAMs but saw nothing come up on the HUD..hmmm (given it was a MP mission, I assumed all the SAMs had been taken down)...so I'm flying along and noticed an explosion behind me off to the right (assumed it was some sort of AAA) and then BLAM = Dead by SA13 Gopher (I think it was). No warning, nothing.

 

So what am I doing wrong? The HUD was on anti radar mode the whole time and nothing came up. Surely for the SAMs to lock me (even momentarily) they would have had to turn their radar on to 'paint' my a/c before locking on and firing but I got zero indication.

 

What am I missing?

[Robin_Hood]

Dead by SA13 Gopher

 

Don't look further. The SA-13 (Strela-10) is a passive infrared air defense system. It does not use a radar, therefore it won't show up either on your SPO or on your Phantasmagoria pod.

 

Bottom line is: in a hot zone, always keep some altitude (> 3 000 m) to protect yourself from IR SAMs and MANPADS. ;)

[Exorcet]

Also keep in mind, MP means CA is possibly active, which means real SEAD. The AI doesn't do a good job of mimicking a good SAM site. A player on the other hand can wait until you're defenseless and then attack you. RWR's may not cover the aircraft in 360 by 360 degrees (I don't think any flyable in DCS has this) so even a radar guided SAM can kill you quietly.

[The_Pharoah]

Ah ok that makes sense. Unfortunately I don't know enough about each SAM/Radar type which doesn't help.

 

I'm assuming then that you have to resort to the Mk I eyeball to find SAM sites, pretty much AFTER they've been launched at you. The book I read on a Wild Weasels (Viper Pilot - Dan Hampton) flying F-16s was pretty much that...wait for them to fire unless you know where they are, then kill them with CBUs as the HARM missles didn't seem to work very well.

 

Helps if you have a wingman too I guess.

 

*edit*

what I wouldn't give for an F-16.

[esb77]

Almost all of the short range air defense systems in DCS (meaning 12 km or less range), are either passive guidance systems, or have an option for passive guidance. The ones that often do use radar are the AAA, Shilka, Vulcan, Gepard, and Tunguska and also the Osa SAM.

 

If you're in a high threat long range SAM environment, carry Anti-Radiation Missiles, the phantasmagoria pod, countermeasures, and just enough fuel to complete the mission. Let someone else worry about the short ranged stuff.

 

In a moderate to low threat long range environment you can put on a rack or two of Vikhrs, or maybe one or two kh-25MLs, or kh-29s (depends on how many pylons you want with ARMs and how many you want filled with stuff for short ranged air defenses) and carry some extra fuel for the extra load and flight time that going after both kinds of air defense is going to require.

 

In that case: Yes the eyeballs and wingmen are very good, but in addition you want to use a brain for some thinking and preparation. In particular, briefing maps, and bullseye calls from allied pilots. For the short range stuff about 98% of winning the battle is figuring out where they are.

 

In general you should expect that any visible cluster of enemy ground units will have some sort of air defense capability, so unless you've positively identified every single unit as not an air defense unit, exercise extreme caution. The real trouble comes from the air defense units hidden within 1-2km of a group of ground units, or alone along a good flight path.

 

Against devious mission designers setting graphics so that your tree display radius is very small is quite helpful, but also quite cheesy.

 

Basically with clever short range air defense placement, you either have to keep out of range, or you'll likely find the stuff after an engine is already on fire.

 

**Except at night. At night with a thermo-optic sight the buggers are pretty easy to spot. Also the 25T's LLTV pod actually functions much more like a thermo-optic camera in performance than an LLTV, units shouldn't stand out against background as much as they do. Of course you can only choose one pod for the Su-25T, so you have to choose long range radar or short range air defenses if you're trying to do suppression at night. Or better, fly in a 4 man element with 2 ARM planes and two LLTV planes.

Edited February 26, 2014 by esb77

[The_Pharoah]

Some good points there...thanks. The problem with playing MP on a pub server is not having anyone else either online or anywhere near you. When I played, there were 3 of us on the server all doing diff things (1 x A10C, 1 x KA50, 1 x SU25 - me) which is a shame but can't be helped.

 

Definitely altitude is the key to give yourself some sort of ability to:

1. spot the SAM; and

2. spot the launch area.

 

Normally when flying SEAD missions, I always carry 2 x 58's and 4 x 25MPUs (instead of 2 x 25MPUs and Vikhrs). This load is good for the radar based SAMs you mentioned above but useless against the passive/optic sites (which is probably where the Vikhrs comes in). In the book I mentioned earlier (Viper Pilot), they pretty much killed all of the SAM sites with CBUs (probably 87s I think) as the HARM missiles didn't really have any effect other than to get the sites to turn off their radar. However, the key was to spot the launch area, escape the SAM and go kill the radar!

[Jimbolya]

All good stuff - I typically make my min altitude 3200+ as a rule of thumb as well. Spotting can be a bit difficult though at that altitude and no forward looking radar can be a pain, but if you're in an MP engagement someone else might be able to spot. Example: Ka-50's at a low altitude start plinking at targets = follow the smoke plumes lol.

[The_Pharoah]

Learnt a valuable lesson in the A10 last night....MUST STAY ABOVE FL170!! that gives you time from SAM launch to TRY and spot the smoke trail and manoeuvre against it.

[esb77]

Some good points there...thanks. The problem with playing MP on a pub server is not having anyone else either online or anywhere near you. When I played, there were 3 of us on the server all doing diff things (1 x A10C, 1 x KA50, 1 x SU25 - me) which is a shame but can't be helped.

 

Definitely altitude is the key to give yourself some sort of ability to:

1. spot the SAM; and

2. spot the launch area.

 

Normally when flying SEAD missions, I always carry 2 x 58's and 4 x 25MPUs (instead of 2 x 25MPUs and Vikhrs). This load is good for the radar based SAMs you mentioned above but useless against the passive/optic sites (which is probably where the Vikhrs comes in). In the book I mentioned earlier (Viper Pilot), they pretty much killed all of the SAM sites with CBUs (probably 87s I think) as the HARM missiles didn't really have any effect other than to get the sites to turn off their radar. However, the key was to spot the launch area, escape the SAM and go kill the radar!

 

Task the A-10 or the Ka-50 to kill the SHORADs. All three aircraft are well suited to that task, but the Su-25T is significantly better at SEAD of the long range stuff.

 

Use a high and fast or low and fast profile for the SEAD, and if you choose a route with care you've got a decent chance of getting in and out without being hit by the short range stuff.

 

I'd probably try using a kh-25ml rather than a cluster munition. More likely to hit the target and more standoff.

 

Another note, is that Vikhrs are only good for DEAD if you know where all the air defenses are ahead of time. Trust me, you do not want to try to do missile evasion with a rack or two of Vikhrs on the plane.

 

Of course, there's also the consideration of workload. If you're trying to do more than one plane's worth of work, then it should be divided up into multiple sorties if you're flying solo.

 

For instance:

 

Sortie 1

High alt SEAD/DEAD to knock out long range and medium range radar SAMs.

 

Sortie 2

High speed low level flight for short range SAM recon (maybe a clean load of 1800 kg fuel, 2 kh-25MLs and NOTHING else, not even cannon ammo).

 

Sortie 3

Med speed and alt SHORAD destruction. You did find ALL of them on sortie 2, right?

 

Sortie 4

Tank/convoy busting.

 

Sortie 5

Command center, bunker, runway, or other strategic target bombing.

 

Really, aside from recon, electronic warfare, and stealth bombing there's no mission that's suitable for a single plane in a combat area. Trying to do 4 or more planes worth of mission in a single plane sortie is one of the most common beginner's mistakes you see in DCS.

[The_Pharoah]

I think I found out first hand that the SU25T SEAD missions are only good for active radar sites. I certainly don't fly with Vikhrs when doing SEAD missions - I usually swap them for another 25MPU juuuust in case.

[GGTharos]

That was the point. Turn it off or eat the HARM. In that respect the HARMs work great. That's why they were able to take those SAMs out with CBUs. That's why the first is called SEAD (shut it down or be destroyed - SUPPRESSION of Enemy Air Defenses) and the other is DEAD (DESTRUCTION of Enemy Air Defenses).

 

In the book I mentioned earlier (Viper Pilot), they pretty much killed all of the SAM sites with CBUs (probably 87s I think) as the HARM missiles didn't really have any effect other than to get the sites to turn off their radar.

[kissme]

My Video about Su25T SEAD Mission after 1.2.6

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjI5NzExOTY0.html

[esb77]

So I did some testing with the missiles available to the Su-25T to see how things are after 1.2.7.

 

Summary, the ideal way for an Su-25T pilot to kill short range air defenses now is to sneak onto a Georgian airbase, steal an U.S. A-10C loaded with Mavericks, and use the A-10 to kill the air defenses.

 

The kh-25ML lost close to 50% of it's effective range in the patch, it went from reliable at 12+ km with launch override, to 6-8 km with launch override and extensive prayer. It's about as good (or bad) as the S25-L now.

 

The kh-29s lost about 2 km of range, they're now good to about 9 km.

 

The Vikhrs are still about at 8 km, and feel faster and smoother to me, though that could just be a matter of not having flown the Grach for about 3 months. At this point I'd call the Vikhrs by far the best option for destroying short range air defenses, as they'll minimize the time you spend in their engagement zone prior to the kill.

 

The semi-active laser/eos kh family no longer offer enough standoff range to launch and kill without entering the engagement range of the short range SAMs.

 

They are probably still the best bet for a heavily armored AAA unit such as a Gepard. The bigger warheads will take it out in one shot, instead of requiring multiple launches from a Vikhr.

 

I'd say the changes make the stock campaign for the Su-25T maybe 40% more difficult. There are a ton of short range air defenses in it, and unless you meddle with things in the mission editor, a lot of the missions are daytime ones with heavy cloud layers starting at 1700 - 2000m.

 

The stock loadouts are way to heavy for the amount of time people are going to be spending inside SAM range now. I'm going to have to start telling newcomers to dump most of their ordnance, half their fuel, and fly multiple sorties.

 

Of course, the way to deal with decreased missile performance (and honestly, the kh-25 was almost certainly far more agile than it should have been), is to upgrade pilot performance. A nice thing, as increased pilot performance is compatible with all aircraft systems and all air warfare scenarios.

Edited March 2, 2014 by esb77

[docfu]

Were these updates due to the representation of the weapons being inaccurate?

 

I still fly with the SU-25T but for right now making the field of engagement "clear" takes me 3-4 hours. (Just did SU-25T campaign B1.4, mission clock started at 1600 and ended at 2030)

 

And my wingman cracks open a bottle of vodka and starts drinking the moment he gets back to base. So much for telling him to reload and get his drunken rear back out on the battlefield...

[esb77]

Were these updates due to the representation of the weapons being inaccurate?

 

I still fly with the SU-25T but for right now making the field of engagement "clear" takes me 3-4 hours. (Just did SU-25T campaign B1.4, mission clock started at 1600 and ended at 2030)

 

And my wingman cracks open a bottle of vodka and starts drinking the moment he gets back to base. So much for telling him to reload and get his drunken rear back out on the battlefield...

 

Well, the basic assumption should be that all weapons in DCS are represented inaccurately. For some reason military forces are not especially keen on wide dissemination of detailed and accurate technical specifications of their high end weapons systems.

 

What they did was implement a system where the flight performance of the missiles is based on aerodynamic considerations. You enter parameters like mass, thrust, drag, lift, shape, airspeed, etc. and then the sim calculates how the missile should behave.

 

Not sure what the algorithms were before they put in the aerodynamic model.

 

However, what the parameters are, and how close the steering is to what a real guidance module would do is probably guesswork at best.

 

My guess it that it's closer to reality now than it was before. Barely being able to make a shot at 6 km with a missile that's said to have a 20 km range may seem pretty bad at first, but if you consider that a Su-25T might launch at 450 km IAS and 750 m alt, whereas a Flanker derivative might launch the same missile from 15,000 m alt and Mach 1.5, then a lot of the apparent discrepancy gets accounted for. I do know that in the old system launch platform speed and altitude had much less effect than the should have. Good for high and fast planes, not so good for low and slow planes like the Su-25T.

 

As far as your time to completion, that's mostly unrealistic mission design and execution.

 

You should be flying with at least 3 other planes and all planes piloted by people with years of full time training in combat aviation. Not to mention that you don't have to clear the field, you have to reduce enemy combat effectiveness below a certain threshold quickly, safely, and as efficiently as possible. In some cases that only means destroying or damaging a small fraction of total enemy units.

 

On occasion I've hopped into the mission editor to alter enemy strength, friendly strength, or mission goals to be less wildly irrational for an untrained solo pilot (after all, a lot of times the wingman isn't much use).

[docfu]

Not only do I clear the field but I come home and clean the toilets.

 

Going for employee of the month.